[a1369209993]

I'm comfortable assuming intent when someone discharges a kinetic weapon at a occupied vehicle. If the car was parked and they assumed it was unoccupied you might have a point.

I wouldn't have any trouble believing there were more attempted murders on the part of the anti-union side, or that this example happened differently than described, but what was described was clearly a (successful) attempt to kill someone.

[adamsea]

> discharges a kinetic weapon ...

Is that the same as shooting a gun? ; )

[a1369209993]

Guns are a specific type of kinetic weapon, yes. So are eg trebuchets or de-oribited asteroids.

[adamsea]

For sure :). I understand that. I was gently teasing and pointing out that the language you used obscured (as there were no trebuchets, de orbiting asteroids, etc, involved) rather than clarifies.

“Shooting a gun”, or “shooting guns or beanbag rounds, etc”, or whatever is specific and relevant to the topic clarifies thought and improves our thought. The opposite approach occluded and damages our thought.

And since language is how we discuss politics, we need clear language in order to truthfully and honestly discuss politics.

:-)

To quote Orwell from Politics and the English Language:

https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

“ Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step toward political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers.”

“ Operators, or verbal false limbs. These save the trouble of picking out appropriate verbs and nouns, and at the same time pad each sentence with extra syllables which give it an appearance of symmetry. Characteristic phrases are: render inoperative, militate against, prove unacceptable, make contact with, be subject to, give rise to, give grounds for, have the effect of, play a leading part (role) in, make itself felt, take effect, exhibit a tendency to, serve the purpose of, etc. etc. The keynote is the elimination of simple verbs. Instead of being a single word, such as break, stop, spoil, mend, kill, a verb becomes a phrase, made up of a noun or adjective tacked on to some general-purposes verb such as prove, serve, form, play, render. In addition, the passive voice is wherever possible used in preference to the active, and noun constructions are used instead of gerunds (by examination of instead of by examining).”

[perl4ever]

>I was gently teasing and pointing out that the language you used obscured

I'd gently suggest it was quite the opposite; used to call attention.

"Understatement often leads to ... rhetorical constructs in which understatement is used to emphasize a point. It is a staple of humour in English-speaking cultures."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understatement

[adamsea]

“Understatement is a form of speech or disclosure which contains an expression of lesser strength than what would be expected. It is the opposite of an embellishment.”

What’s the “expression of lesser strength” in this case? Confused.

Also, the bit you quoted continues with this as an example of the sort of rhetorical construct used in understatement:

“ For example, in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life, an Army officer has just lost his leg. When asked how he feels, he looks down at his bloody stump and responds, "Stings a bit."”

That’s a quite different style from the “discharged a kinetic energy weapon” phrase which we are analyzing.

If the Army officer in the Monty Python skit had said, “hmm, there seems to have been an incision made through my epidermis, muscle, and bone, resulting in a reduction of my ambulatory capacity”, that might have been funny in other ways but I don’t think it would have been understatement.

Similarly, while I have no idea of the intent of the author of “kinetic energy weapon” phrase, I argue the language in question is not understatement.

[perl4ever]

>What’s the “expression of lesser strength” in this case? Confused

Well, that particular Wikipedia article is not a complete guide to the English language or the topic of understatement. Taken in isolation, it doesn't prove the existence of the sort of phrase in question.

I guess if this were in court, I'd lose my case because I didn't spend enough time researching.

[a1369209993]

> pointing out that the language you used obscured (as there were no trebuchets, de orbiting asteroids, etc, involved) rather than clarifies.

And I was pointing that dropping a large rock on someone is a attempt to kill them. I don't particularly care about it happening to be politically motivated.

[adamsea]

[EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EF-IT: The other guy was technically correct. And there are lots of edits here. It’s the “Pale Fire” of HN comments.]

[EDIT: All this because I lost the thread that we were talking about when striking miners in the UK dropped a concrete block from a footbridge onto David Wilkies taxi whilst he was driving a strike-breaking miner to work, killing David. Hopefully future HN readers will find some value and pleasure in this thread, however.]

Ah. I didn’t realize a naturally occurring solid mass or aggregate of minerals was involved.

:):):)

And with regards to politics, part of Orwell’s point was that our language - how we choose to express things - is political, too. Regardless of our intent.

I wasn’t saying anything about the politics of anyone throwing a rock. And I’m not saying anything about your political beliefs.

I’m saying there’s a political power in how language is used, even if the subject under discussion isn’t expressly “political”.

Finally, to be a complete pedant, although “discharge” is often used as a synonym for “shoot”, I’ve never heard it used as a synonym for “throw” before.

So the correct way to use overly complex language to say “throwing a rock” would be “launching a kinetic energy weapon”. Or “releasing”.

Because unlike a gun, or bow, or whatever, in this case the “weapons system”, if it wouldn’t be a dehumanizing offense to call it such, is a persons arm.

Not a gun or bow or phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range or whatever.

And when we throw things we don’t “discharge” them.

Which is actually a perfect example of Orwell’s point.

To try to call someone throwing something a “discharge” is to dehumanize them, because humans do not discharge things from their arms when they throw them.

We do, however, discharge snot from our noses when we sneeze ;)

We are talking about throwing a rock at a truck, right?

[EDIT EDIT: We are not. We are talking about pushing a concrete block off a bridge onto a car below. Which I suppose, pedantically, is to “discharge” since the stored potential kinetic energy of the block is what makes it a weapon, although “pushing” is still a human thing, but it doesn’t feel as dehumanizing as the “throwing” case for some reason. You were, technically, correct, which is the best kind of correct. Ah well, at least we got a lesson in the relationship between language and politics out of the whole thing.]

I didn’t just write a pedantic magnum opus on the wrong subject because I didn’t realize the other person was still discussing hypothetical asteroids being de-orbited to destroy planets, or hypothetical kinetical bombardment weapons aka “rods from god”, did I?

;)

[EDIT EDIT EDIT: You did not, but what you did is almost as embarrassing.]

Lord, I hope I’m not arguing with a 16-year old on the Internet. It’d be like arguing with my younger self :/

[EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT: If so, I think you lost.]