[victor106]

From what a few of my colleagues told me: France is very racist. Apparently this is true in most of Europe. Everything looks okay on the surface but they are deep racial undertones. They tell me that believe it or not America is the one of the least racist countries. It does not mean there’s no racism in America just that it’s lesser.

It’s easy for immigrants to assimilate into society in America than most places in EU. Till that changes no matter how easy it is to get a startup visa it won’t make a difference.

I don’t know how true that is. Can someone with more experience please validate?

[ttwy2020]

As an immigrant who has been living in France (Paris) for 7 years, I didn't personally experience any racism, on the contrary, my collegues, neighbours and strangers, all treat me respectfully as I would treat them.

On the other hand, my wife, being a Hijabi, did experience it in subtle ways (if we can call it racism): sometimes not-so-friendly gazes from strangers, she can not go to the public swimpool because burkini is not allowed, and she struggled for a year to find work even though she had a good engineering degree (the reason was not always disclosed, but some recruiters did explicitly tell her that it was because of her Hijab). Which is different from the UK and other European countries from what I have been told.

I don't watch French media, but I hear that that's where racism mostly emerges. And I must admit, the behaviour of some immigrant communities (especially some north-african ones, saying this as a north-african myself), partly justifies the hostile attitude towards them.

[realusername]

> (the reason was not always disclosed, but some recruiters did explicitly tell her that it was because of her Hijab). Which is different from the UK and other European countries from what I have been told.

That's because the French culture does not work on the same basis as the UK and northern european countries. The french society strongly goes towards integration and not multiculturalism.

It has a lot of deep consequences in the society, starting that people expect you to identify and behave as French, regardless of your background, skin color or anything else.

This means you will really be treated as a local from day one and just a small racist minority will really care about your background. But it also means as a double edged sword that if people perceive that you reject this identity, they will think that you are rejecting the society and will react negatively.

[ttwy2020]

> That's because the French culture does not work on the same basis as the UK and northern european countries.

That's really interesting to know. I wish such labels (strong integration vs multiculturalism) were more explicit, like part of an "identity card" for countries.

Do you know what the root of this cultural difference is? Historically, has it always been present?

[hegtor]

France has a culture of "universalism" which dates back to the Lumières period which can be seen as one of the roots to this attitude.

This cultural tendency is very visible when you compare the way France handled colonies compared to the UK : France tended to impose its value to "enlighten" colonised countries, while the UK srayed much more in the realms of economic exploitation without getting so involved in trying to impose british culture and values.

[P-ala-din]

The underlying assumption is if you wear a hijab, you're not integrated.

I honestly feel like this is just religious discrimation with extra steps.

[read_if_gay_]

But then your underlying assumption is that religion isn’t part of cultural integration. Why is religion separate from culture? I would say it’s a subset of culture.

[exhilaration]

What about your name? Do you have to give that up too to culturally integrate? I'm sure you've seen the articles about CVs rejected by French firms for having Jewish and Muslim names:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/2...

[read_if_gay_]

That absolutely sucks, and does put the rejections in a bad light, but names don’t directly affect your behavior. Religion is different in that regard.

[realusername]

> What about your name? Do you have to give that up too to culturally integrate?

In the past you had that too yes, your name was transformed into a French equivalent.

[P-ala-din]

- I mean freedom of religion is a human right.

- So In a majority christian state, is it ok to discriminate against jews?

[read_if_gay_]

I guess you could say freedom of religion is a human right but it's not a human right to be culturally integrated. And so you could absolutely be required to give up that freedom in order to integrate, in the same way your workplace may require you to be at your office and do certain things, which is clearly not a violation of your freedom.

[realusername]

> - So In a majority christian state, is it ok to discriminate against jews?

People would still be discriminated for wearing a big cross in France as well, it's just not that common.

[exhilaration]

I'm South Asian, grew up in Switzerland, live in the U.S. now and this is the same impression I have of non-UK European countries. Minorities aren't getting beaten up in the streets but there's silent racism in employment. What my mother tells me is that you'll never rise above a certain level in most companies, there's a glass ceiling keeping minorities out. Of course there are exceptions but they're rare.

[throwaway13337]

My experience in Lille, France would concur with that. Never had I seen such blatant racism as I did when I went out for the night with another white (swede) and a black friend.

The black friend was not allowed in a club that we were and had two instances I saw in different bars of overt racial comments from strangers in the short time we were drinking together. It was weird.

He came back to the next day with a beat up face and a story of some horrible events that unfolded shortly after I'd went to bed.

This guy was dressed like us and in school to be a lawyer. He wasn't loud or anything you might think that might draw attention to him other than his skin color.

Growing up in the states and living in a few cities in Europe and in traveling, I'd never seen anything like this in my life.

N=1 and all that but it was truly bizarre.

[ohgodplsno]

Lille is... it's northern france.

I'm not going to pretend we're perfect. You'll find racist people everywhere. Just, the farther up north you go, the more likely you are.

[realusername]

I would say the opposite after done some traveling, it's honestly one of the best countries when it comes to racism. There are very very few countries in the world where you can just arrive there and be treated as local from day 1, even in Europe.

It's just focused strongly on integration instead of being focused on multiculturalism like in the anglosphere. And you really need to understand that because US values don't apply.

[hbt]

Yes, racism in Europe is due to nativism. It's not as bad as asian countries though.

Imagine if native americans were still around and you immigrated to the United States or Canada. Chances are the statues, official languages, culture (music etc.), food and mindset would be heavily influenced by the native american population.

Although English/French/Spanish might be accepted languages, it would be a constant fight and constant reminders that you kinda don't belong here and you have to "integrate" i.e give up parts of your culture and who you are.

I don't know if multiculturalism is better than integration; there are advantages to having a diverse society but also a cohesive high trust society.

However, in France and most of Europe, no matter how much you integrate you will never be "native". Or in French, "Francais de souche". Your skin color, your last name, your accent will stick out and you will be treated differently.

Again, not like in Asia where you might as well be a second/third class citizen. But enough, to make you feel like you don't belong and you're always a foreigner... no matter how much you "integrate".

[ttwy2020]

> but also a cohesive high trust society

Can a diverse society not be a high trust one? It has been shown that more diversity is associated with less trust both among and within ethnic groups [1], but it still puzzles me why that is the case.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam#Diversity_and...

[burntoutfire]

Diverse groups of people have different core values. What is treasured by some can be annoying or simply wrong for others. In such case, the best we can realistically hope for is "tolerance" - i.e. I don't agree with how you live and what you value, but I tolerate you in order to maintain peace. That's a suboptimal state when compared to true social cohesion.

[itoocode]

I lived in France for 10+ years, I graduated at a French University and worked as software engineer, from what I have seen, France is not racist, but to assimilate into the society is not easy, I totally agree. I am fluent in French, so it is not about the language. Racism on streets of Paris does not exist at all, but racism exists at work, that is more worrying in France. Articles like this portray a welcoming image of France, because I could say I have been treated disrespectfully at the visa offices in France.

[actuator]

Based on the anecdotes I have heard, I think it does exist. I had met couple of guys who had worked in France based companies and they did tell about feeling very isolated there.

In contrast, even with all the racism around Brexit, one of them loved living in London and would sing praises of the inclusiveness he felt in and out of office.

[dudul]

France is only perceived as "racist" because historically it tried to enforce a very assimilationist model of immigration. Where countries like the US or the UK are perfectly fine with communities living next to each other with their own specificities, in France everyone is French. If you move to France it's not to import your own way of life, it's because you want to adopt the French one.

The model is simply due to how the country was created (a cosmopolitan group of very different cultures that had to find a way to form a unified country), but I don't know how sustainable it is in our modern days.

[read_if_gay_]

Am asian, born and grew up in Germany. Apart from the very, very occasional dickhead I don't think anyone's racist. Can't make a comparison to the US though.

[lma21]

> It does not mean there’s no racism in America just that it’s lesser

Based on what are you comparing here?

[tasogare]

> France is very racist

Literally the biggest lie I read here for a long time. Yeah France is so racist that 20% of the population is of foreign non-white ancestry, nationality is easy to get (notably got automatic if botn on national soil), no welfare programs discriminates on nationality basis, illegal aliens are rarely expelled (being sentenced is not more automatic ground for it), there is laws forbidding criticizing immigration, land are given for cheap to build foreign religious buildings, etc. If anything France isn’t putting it’s original citizens first enough. The super high tax rates explained elsewhere is in great part used to fund immigrants life.

Also from the point of view of most French, the important thing is speaking good French and integrating well with our culture, regardless of skin color.

[actuator]

Btw, just because people are immigrating, it doesn't mean racism is low. Economic opportunities and better quality of life might be the main drivers, even at the cost of facing discrimination.

Most of the French immigrants are from erstwhile French colonies like in the case of Britain, racism and exploitation of their homelands didn't stop them from moving to seek better life.

[hegtor]

France is not racist but the Front National is one of the most popular political parties, arriving second at the last elections. It is litterally an extreme right, openly racist party.