[kstenerud]

I'm just waiting for the HN response to a news article in a few years where this practice has expanded to the point that an elderly couple dies of dehydration and heat exhaustion after the city cuts off their power and water for failing to properly maintain the sidewalk out front.

This power & water cutoff thing was originally introduced in 2019 to combat unauthorized commercial cannabis farming as an alternative to criminal charges (which is not terrible because no human basic needs are being withheld in a commercial context).

Now suddenly it's being expanded to combat residential ordinance violations, which is a quantum leap in bad ideas. I'm surprised that nobody sees the problem here, especially the enlightened HN crowd. It's not like there haven't been sufficient tools to deal with property nuisances & safety violations for hundreds of years in ways that are effective against both rich and poor, and especially not tools that can lead to such terrible consequences for the poor as we slide down this slippery slope.

[dragonwriter]

> It's not like there haven't been sufficient tools to deal with property nuisances & safety violations for hundreds of years in ways that are effective against both rich and poor, and especially not tools that can lead to such terrible consequences for the poor as we slide down this slippery slope.

Uh, the main existing tool for property nuisances is forfeiture. While in this specific case I would enthusiastically support the use of that tool, I don't think it's a more modest or restrained response than what has been given.

It's like arguing “we've authorized use of guns for this problem for centuries, why are we taking the extreme step of bringing out a taser?”

[DoreenMichele]

I've actually had a couple of law classes and worked in an environment where legal stuff drove a lot of stuff at the company.

I think this is one of those situations where you want to survive this situation well enough to have (the threat of) the sorts of problems down the road that you are worried about rather than having worse problems because so many people died in the pandemic that the fabric of society has fallen apart and some of the rich people with bunkers in New Zealand are hunkering down there while the not rich remain stranded in what is left of the US.

[kstenerud]

I don't get it... what's the problem with using existing tools, such as bringing criminal charges against these people? That's within the law already, and people in jail can't throw house parties.

[dragonwriter]

> I don't get it... what's the problem with using existing tools, such as bringing criminal charges against these people?

This is an existing tool, and it's one that the occupants were warned would be used if they continued their violations.

Criminal charges are slower, and don't do as much to stop the immediate threat without custodial arrest and pretrial confinement, either in jail, which itself is a public health issue, especially when high-risk transmission behavir is involved, or in separate isolation (which IIRC is available for public health order violations but is manpower intensive.)

[DoreenMichele]

They are letting people out of prison in a lot of places who haven't committed violent/serious crimes because the prisons are a breeding ground for disease in a scenario like this, the prisons are overwhelmed, the hospitals are overwhelmed, etc.

I also see that as a vastly worse legal precedent than shutting off your water to deter disease-spreading large gatherings. That's a great way to make sure we can throw lots and lots of poor people in jail -- just as soon as the pandemic is over the our jails aren't overwhelmed as a matter of course.

[kstenerud]

I think you may have misunderstood. The tools of increasing fines and criminal charges (resulting in jail time or not) have existed for decades already, and are proven in the field to be effective. This is nothing new. There's also nothing stopping the courts from deferring a jail term until the pandemic has passed.

[DoreenMichele]

I am going to refer you to this fine comment and officially drop discussing this with you further:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24221493

[apple4ever]

Then you fix the system, you don't shut off power.