[jeromec]

In their passionate commitment to creating, and their openness to sharing ideas, hackers see their online exploits as “a form of participation in the ‘work’ of God in creation,”

Given that logical reasoning is usually a strong trait common to hackers, it's a bit ironic to have the Vatican attempt to speak for hackers. Perhaps someone should email them this poll http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1486594.

[ChuckMcM]

It is unfortunate that 'religion' and 'belief in god' are so inextricably entangled in American society.

Too often, what people call 'religion' is really an organization that seeks to use the existence and/or potential favor of a supernatural being to impose external controls on 'believers' (which is to say if you don't do what I say you'll go to hell kinds of things).

There are folks who believe in the existence of a God but are not trapped by Junior High syllogisms like "Can He make a rock so big He can't move it?"

Brent Walters [1] is one such person who has spent a lot of time critically examining belief in God, why he believes, and what he believes, and more importantly what he does not believe about God. He has tracked down sources, and copies of manuscripts from around the world that help inform and educate as to what was going when they were written and to help understand the context of the writing in that light.

I think Hacker's embody a very powerful concept which is what the Vatican (and the Dali Lama) really cherish which is the search for truth, through rigor and reason. When a device or program misbehaves a hacker wants to know why it misbehaves and whether or not that behavior is normal or abnormal. Its the truth underlying the observation that they seek. This is why debugging can be so rewarding, not only do you fix the problem but you often develop a deep understanding of the how the environment provoked the problem in the first place and what needed to be true for the problem to not occur in the future.

Truth seeking is a requirement for hackers. As it is for those who would become enlightened.

[1] http://www.kgoam810.com/Sectional.asp?id=32111

[jeromec]

Did you just say the Vatican really cherishes truth, and the search for it? Are we talking about a different Vatican or a different definition of truth?

[ChuckMcM]

Yes I did. But cherishing a thing does not prevent you from abusing it.

[jeromec]

Kind of like an abusive spouse I guess, eh? Alright.

[jarin]

In recent years, the Vatican (especially the science part) and the Catholic Church are increasingly looking like two separate entities.

[bendmorris]

While I'm not myself Catholic... I disagree that celebrating hackers is "attempting to speak for them." Also, there are plenty of religious hackers, logical Catholics, Catholic hackers, etc. so your assertion of some sort of conflict between logical reasoning and the Vatican seems rather bigoted.

[jeromec]

Bigoted? I simply made an objective observation. None of the thousands of religions of the world stand up particularly well to strict logic and reasoning. The very nature of faith is belief without objective proof. I did not attack faith.

Hacker News is obviously home to a very large sample size of "hackers", and the poll I linked clearly appears to support my observation. I never said there were no religious hackers, just as it can't be said there are no religious scientists.

Also, I would call "hackers see such and such" as speaking for, not celebrating hackers.

[adammichaelc]

How ironic that you linked to such a non-scientific, inherently flawed poll (ie not a random sample of HN readers) to argue in favor of science and objectivity. Just sayin! ;-)

[jeromec]

No, I didn't link to a non-scientific, inherently flawed poll to argue in favor of science and objectivity.

I suggested two things: first, that the opinionated people at the Vatican would probably do well to take note of the results of that particular poll -- for whatever it's worth; second, that the poll appeared to support my observation. I never said it was scientific. I would very much welcome the conducting of an actual scientific poll on the subject.

I have other reasons to argue in favor of science and objectivity, which certainly don't stem from a Web poll.

[lotharbot]

> "The very nature of faith is belief without objective proof."

It's only about the last 150 years, within a small subset of Christianity, that faith has meant "belief without proof" or "belief without reason". Throughout the rest of Jewish and Christian history, as well as in other classical European and Middle Eastern writings, faith has been used to mean "acting upon a belief you hold for good reason, and continuing to act in the face of emotional difficulty". The classical definition of faith, which is still used by most serious religious scholars, is the triumph of reason and evidence over temporary emotion. (Previously discussed at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2366932 )

> None of the thousands of religions of the world stand up particularly well to strict logic and reasoning

Obligatory [citation needed]. Or, rather, [many thousands of citations needed].

If you ever happen to be in my neighborhood, join me for dinner and you can do your best to demonstrate how my particular religion doesn't stand up well to strict logic and reasoning.

[luminous00]

I'm a Catholic hacker. Apparently I am a rare breed around here.

[patio11]

Not so rare.

[jterce]

Not rare at all.

[cicero]

Definitely not.

[tptacek]

Not rare. :)

If you broaden the scope to "christian", a lot of very well known hackers also turn out to be fairly observant.

[rmc]

I was baptised, but tried to leave (defect). They don't let you do it anymore ( http://www.technomancy.org/catholic-defection/ ) :(

[Apocryphon]

Ssh! Don't let them know that Knuth is a devout Lutheran!

[kylemaxwell]

This seems less speaking "for" hackers and more "about" hackers. The distinction matters.

[jeromec]

And the Vatican is an authority on how "hackers see their online exploits" because... why?

[kylemaxwell]

Um, given how many sites on the Internet chronicle and reflect "hacker culture", I'd think an interested person could do the research.

And yeah, talk to people. I suspect that priests get a lot of opportunity to do that.

[joshuacc]

"The Vatican" isn't an authority on this, nor is this article connected to the Vatican in any substantive way. Fr. Antonio might be an authority due to studying hacker culture, but it isn't clear.

[chc]

From having spoken to them?

[jeromec]

It didn't occur to me the two groups were on such natural speaking terms.

So if I talk to a few Catholic priests who tell me the priesthood is about molesting underage altar boys, should I then go out and claim that is how Catholic priests see the priesthood?

[chc]

Yes, you should. It's unlikely that you will be able to talk to several priests who would all say that, but if you do, by all means let the public know that this is an opinion shared by these Catholic priests.

P.S.: I think you may be forgetting that "Hackers believe in God" can mean any of "All hackers believe in God," "Hackers tend to believe in God" or "There are hackers who believe in God." From the context, it seems most likely to me that the latter is the OP's intended usage.

[jeromec]

Well, now that's the crux of our disagreement. If I say white men are gay, I don't think anyone will argue that's a neutral statement (to which nobody will take issue) as it can be easily interpreted as meaning I only spoke to a handful of white men, and it's only them I'm speaking about.