[lostmyoldone]

San Fransisco has one of the highest, and in some cases - highest - housing and rental prices in the US.

If taxes are as high as you claim, it would be more rational to argue that the high prices are indirectly caused by that tax, rather than prices being held down by taxes.

Several causes seems more likely for a change in inventory, or pricing.

An extremely high cost of housing and the consequently smaller than average living spaces, which people are spending more time in due to covid has probably led some people to re-evaluate their priorities. It has in less heated markets.

Increased possibilities of remote work even in tech companies traditionally against it, and as tech drives SF, this is going to affect a majority of people living there.

Expectations of recession due to one of 1) covid 2) some of the giants getting pushback from an administration that is fickle at best 3) new competition from non US companies in driving markets, eg TikTok 4) ... and more.

There are plenty of somewhat plausible reasons to get out of the highest priced housing market in the US, especially if you can't handle a significant downturn in prices.

You could argue taxes too, if the market prices were average, or below average, but in the current situation any economic sensitivity is caused by an overheated housing market, nothing else can even touch the force of a market as hot as the SF one.

However, if a market with 1/4 the inventory of NY increase its inventory, even when it's with about 100%, one really can't tell anything. It's the hottest of the hot markets that's cooled down a little, and it doesn't really tell anything yet, except that the market has changed somehow.

[justchilly]

If you make $250k in SF (sounds high, but about average for the people I know that are leaving SF), state income tax alone is $19,996. If you make that in Texas, state income tax is $0. That $20k/year is for many people a bigger deal than the cost of living. Most people I know leaving were home owners or rent controlled.

Source: moved to Austin in June.

[twalla]

Property taxes in TX are generally higher but the lower average home price sort of negates that. Regardless, I'm looking forward to competing with even _more_ cash offers over listing price within 24 hours of a listing going up.

[ed25519FUUU]

2nd tier cities with affordable living and fiber internet are going to see a huge boon of immigrants.

Cities take note and start rolling our fiber as fast as you can.

[seanmcdirmid]

$20k/year to live in Austin, I think my AC bill would eat all that up. But there are other places that don’t have state income tax, like Seattle.

[mcphilip]

I assume you’re being sarcastic but I’ll give a datapoint anyways. Small home in Austin, ~1400 square feet, costs a little over $200/month in the summer and I keep it a nice cool 71 degrees 24/7. Low to mid $100s the rest of the year. I don’t have any notable shade coverage, either.

[seanmcdirmid]

It was tongue in cheek. I lived in Austin for only one hot summer, and my dash board melted. Not a bad place otherwise.

[Tiktaalik]

lmao at the idea of caring about $20k when you make $250k

[justchilly]

It's expensive being well off. If you make $250k a year, you take home $159k in SF. A big chunk of that goes to cost of living such that the $20k means one of your two kids can't go to the college they want because it's $50k per year, and you don't qualify for financial aid.

[veggieburglar]

It’s much, much more expensive to be poor.

Reread this comment and find why most of “regular” America hates the coasts and tech elites.

[derwiki]

Unless I’m mistaken, there are colleges that are less than 50k/year.

[daniel-cussen]

And others that aren't, that's the point. That kid can't go to his college of choice because it's expensive, not that he can't go to any college at all.

[Green_man]

8% of income is significant for almost everyone. It could be easy for someone living on a lot less to assume that a marginal 20k doesn't matter to "rich people", but lifestyle inflation and regional cost of living differences should be considered.

[apexalpha]

I'm in Europe and we generally pay between 33% to 50% of our income in tax.

So, yeah, i can't really imagine being angry that you're being asked to contribute back to the society. Especially when you make 250k.

[justchilly]

The marginal rate in California for high earners is well over 50%. That 8% you're referring to is just the state income tax portion applied to the entire income.

Marginal rate for high earners includes: 37% federal. 13.3% state, plus FICA, social security, local taxes, etc. not to mention employer payroll tax and insurance premiums that are essentially passed on to employees but baked into tax in Europe).

Taxes are significantly higher in California than Europe for high earners (like the people leaving SF). There seems to be a major misconception about this even among Americans. Take France for example. Uses a simliar marginal rate system but caps out at 48%. https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/france/individual/taxes-on-pers...

[pedrosorio]

"high earners" - this thread starts with someone asking why people earning $250k would care about $20k in taxes and the person you are replying to is talking about tax/income in Europe, not marginal tax rate

- 37% federal requires $510k income (after $12k personal exemption and probably $20k retirement savings)

- 13.3% state in California requires $1M income

- Social security is included in FICA and does not count towards the marginal rate for high earners (you pay no social security tax on income above $137k)

- Local taxes?

[onlyrealcuzzo]

Don't forget property tax that you're paying directly if you own or indirectly if you rent. If you rent, your property tax is likely a third of your rent in SF, to put it in perspective.

The average home price in The Bay is $1.3M. Because of prop 13, most owners aren't paying tax on that much, but most renters are paying pretty close (most units are relatively new stock). This comes out to $23,400 a year in taxes per house/condo. SF median salary is $96k.

Obviously the average person making $96k ($67k after income taxes) isn't paying $23k in property tax, but I think it helps give an idea at how big of an expense this is to most renters...

[enra]

The difference is that in US you also pay federal income tax and then additionally state income tax if one exists. The authors point was just that the its lucrative to move to another state, and save on the state taxes.

The other difference is that as individual you almost get nothing for your taxes. Childcare, college education, health care, pensions, everything is private and something you or your employer has to pay.

In Europe paying taxes feels better since in many countries you actually lot of this stuff for free in an exchange from the taxes you pay.

[Green_man]

tldr: my point is that people at high income levels still care about marginal income differences, not the morality of the tax.

"asked to contribute back to the society" is a generalization. how much should people be asked to give back? Similarly, even if a rate was fair, isn't it understandable that someone might prefer to pay less in taxes? We aren't talking about tax evasion, rather considering regional differences in taxation as part of the cost benefit analysis of moving. I imagine many in california share your beliefs and feel they are giving back a fair share of their labor. but it feels you are advocating for avoiding the conversation, or perhaps too quick to dismiss them as selfish, which seems to be less productive than understanding why others behave differently.

[in3d]

It would actually mean around 12.5% higher after-tax income. And after considering minimum fixed expenses, such as housing or food, these state tax savings become even more significant.

[Green_man]

that's a very good point. in this case, the actual situation being considered is going from a squo of ~230k to 250k if the tax didn't exist/subject was no longer required to pay the tax.

[Tiktaalik]

Lol lifestyle inflation. I’m sorry why should we be crying over people when they come up short after buying a new yacht and country club membership?

[Green_man]

As a college student, sometimes I don't buy cheese, or I buy $3 gouda, or $6 gouda. arguably any money spent on cheese is an extravagence, one that could wait for my career. But, I spend money on things that are enjoyable, and I spend more when I have more. "lifestyle inflation" isn't something that everyone richer than you does in order to buy more yachts or useless shit, it's something that literally everyone does. There are people poorer than you who "waste" their money on things they enjoy. perhaps they should also pay higher taxes because some third party has decided that their spending is frivolous? Tax rates should consider the well being of the citizens in that bracket, and a serious consideration of well being will require good faith- not condemning discretionary spending as unnecessary.

[ulfw]

You DO realise that's not the only taxes paid, right???

[che_shirecat]

what if I'm trying to save 75% of my income? $20k is very significant when I'm working with 62.5k a year.

[Tiktaalik]

Don’t really see what the purpose of the money is. You could be spending 75% on hookers and blow and it doesn’t change things.

The point is that your basic needs are well being exceeded at even like 80k, at which point you’re already in the top 5-10%. It’s obnoxious and greedy to be concerned about such low amounts of money when you’re making $250k, in the top 1% and have so many more opportunities than other people.

[logicchains]

>It’s obnoxious and greedy to be concerned about such low amounts of money

It's obnoxious and a greedy for you to feel like you have some right to say what somebody else should do with their hard-earned money.

[Tiktaalik]

Do you oppose progressive taxes as well?

It's a simple problem of who has the strongest ability to contribute to pay for the things we all need to keep our society growing.

Bitching and moaning about having to pay $20k when you have 250k and are in the top 1% of wealth in society is unseemly.

[refurb]

8% of your income?