[Nextgrid]

Just wondering, how do you vet the people that apply? I can imagine a lot of people would love to "earn" a free 2k a month and would happily play along doing the bare minimum amount of work required.

I contemplated doing something similar in London (not paying money per-se, but providing a location & good hardware for the students to use) but was kind of worried about ending up with an office full of freeloaders that just enjoy the amenities provided without caring about the curriculum itself.

I've experimented with a few people I know that are stuck in bullshit jobs and gave them hardware, software and any books/resources they'd need to learn programming, but while they are very grateful for it I haven't actually seen any progress or frankly even long-term motivation.

[dvt]

> Just wondering, how do you vet the people that apply? I can imagine a lot of people would love to "earn" a free 2k a month and would happily play along doing the bare minimum amount of work required.

I think people that never worked in the public sector, particularly in something like social services, overestimate the goodness (for the lack of a better word) of average people. People that do this usually come from highly-competitive and privileged backgrounds -- top tier universities, FAANG jobs, etc. And the assumption is that "anyone else" could have made it, too! Everyone is just as stubborn, just as motivated, and just as smart. But FAANG jobs and top-tier universities are self-selecting.

There's a nugget of truth here, and we shouldn't forget what Rawls taught us about the Veil of Ignorance[1], but the reality is that social mobility (particularly in the West) is at a historic all time high. I'm not saying don't donate or don't give back (as a Christian, I feel a moral obligation, in fact, to donate to the less fortunate), but just that implementing welfare policies or -- as @songzme did -- giving resources away, is pretty tricky. Not only do you want to avoid the Free-rider problem[2], but you also want to make sure that people won't end up being wholly dependent on the resources they're the beneficiaries of.

[1] https://fs.blog/2017/10/veil-ignorance/

[2] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/

[songzme]

You comment was downvoted but I upvoted it because you bring up a valid point. I've noticed first hand the free-rider problem and I have mixed feelings.

I thought it was interesting that all students with the free-rider symptoms did not feel good about free-riding. They tried to help out and feel bad when we meet for 1-1 and they haven't done much.

Sometimes, I feel like I'm actually fighting against FAANG because these companies are spending billions trying to capture as much of my students' attention as possible and I have to spend more time helping manage my students out of these distractions.

I'm actually starting to wonder if the free-rider problem exists because of FAANG creating addictive content and the media glorifying a certain lifestyle. If students were not exposed to these distractions, would they still be free-riding? I honestly don't think so and my next year's plan is to try and simulate this.

[kome]

The economy of distraction is indeed a fucked up economy... there are just 24h in a day. And we have billionaires competing for our attention. Creating opium-like content and experiences (tv, social media, videogames).

I wonder myself how deal with that in a systemic level. A society of consumers is bad... but a society that is a audience is worse.

[monoideism]

That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence, I’ve seen no evidence in a life lived among working class and professional-class individuals that there is any significant difference in work ethic. I wonder if you’re even aware how many poor and working-class individuals work 2 full-time jobs.

The reason why folks working in social services might have a different impression is that they’re primarily coming into contact with people who are in failure mode for a variety of reasons: addiction, health-issues, mental illness, etc. They are not representative of the poor and working classes in general, and their failure to maintain a strong work ethic is often impeded by their life challenges.

Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system. That may make them seem more common than they actually are.

> but the reality is that social mobility (particularly in the West) is at a historic all time high

No idea about global social mobility, it’s entirely possible it’s at an all-time high. But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. It’s been declining for many, many decades:

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_th...

A few studies show that the decline in social mobility may be leveling off, but if that’s the case (and even that isn’t clear-many studies show the opposite), then almost certainly the financial crisis and COVID will reverse that trend.

[dvt]

> That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites.

Nowhere in my post did I mention elites. In fact, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites. Tech fares much better here than, say, investment banking.

> While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence

That's not what I said at all -- if I had to say they selected for one thing, I'd say that the institutions I mentioned probably select for conscientiousness.

> Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system...

Again, this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers. I'd prefer looking at this in the abstract (because studies will always be politicized), and freeloading can definitely be an optimal strategy[1].

> But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA.

Oh come on, at least let's be fair. This is a contentious issue and there are disagreements here. Some say it's gone down, others say it's gone up[2].

[1] https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory...

[2] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leadi...

[monoideism]

> That's not what I said at all

Well, what did you mean by “just as smart”?? Most working class men and women are in fact fairly conscientious. The institutions you mentioned do select for higher IQ. Are you claiming that software development does not require a higher IQ than a typical non-professional job? There’s a lot of psychological research that suggests otherwise.

> act, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites.

By any reasonable definition, anyone working as a software developer in a FAANG is an elite. Most of you are in the top 1% income-wise. Most of you share the same cultural values, and live in the same isolated environment (note: I’m generalizing - that may not apply to you personally).

> this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers

Are you talking about me here, or the OP? If me, it’s particularly amusing. I went to a state school, never worked for a FAANG, and have actually worked in social services (for a charity, for 2 years). I have a very different view of working class work ethic than you do. Most people work hard.

By the way, have you worked in the public sector, or in social services?

> ...contentious issue...

No, it’s really not a contentious issue. The title of the article you referenced is misleading, if you read the whole article. Heckman doesn’t claim that social mobility is going up. He just believes that the data isn’t as bad as Chetty claims it is. The vast majority of research in this area shows declining social mobility. Some of it suggests the long decline in mobility may be leveling off. None I’m aware of suggest it’s rising.

Read Piketty, Chetty, and Milanovic. The data is clear. In the US, social mobility has been dropping for decades, and income/wealth inequality rising. For me personally, coming from small town USA, and in my own large extended family, I have significant anecdotal evidence to back this up.

[dvt]

> For me personally, coming from small town USA, and in my own large extended family, I have significant anecdotal evidence to back this up.

You make some fair points, and maybe our life experiences are just vastly different. Having grown up in abject poverty (post-Communist Eastern Europe), migrated to the States when I was 11 with my family, and watched my parents struggle and, to a certain extent, "make it" in America, the idea that there's no social mobility in the US is foreign to me. And this applies to my extended family as well.

Keep in mind that my grandparents don't even have 4 years of school, so it's not like I'm some blue-blood elite. The opportunities that the US gave me and my family make me immensely proud to call myself an American.

[songzme]

You have a great story. Out of 100 people in abject poverty in the US, how many do you think ended up like you to "make it"?

Rather than talk about your story and how you were able to "make it", I think it'll be really cool if you found a way to help open up this social mobility so that is is accessible for more people.

That's what I'm trying to do anyways. I've moved quite a few people from 40k / year (whole family) to making 150k / year. You not only learn alot by doing that, you can also create miracles in people's lives.

[gwenzek]

I think your wrong about the "all time high social mobility" my understanding is that the peak was reach 40 years ago. I'm currently reading Thomas Piketty on the subject

[dvt]

40 years ago, most of Eastern Europe was under North Korea-like Communism, China was still enforcing the one-child policy, and South Africa was still under Apartheid. Not to mention the looming fear of nuclear annihilation. I’m not sure how 40 years ago, we were better off.

But I’ll look into Thomas Piketty.

[songzme]

> Just wondering, how do you vet the people that apply?

No vetting process, it was first come first served. As long as a student kept showing up, I will do everything I can to help. I don't advertise paying students, I offer it after I've seen them make some progress.

> I can imagine a lot of people would love to "earn" a free 2k a month and would happily play along doing the bare minimum amount of work required.

This actually happened to a few students. But in their defense, I would do the same. If I had been struggling month to month and suddenly I get a chance to breath and relax, I would relax.

I've been trying to condition myself to be okay giving money to people and not expecting anything in return (in the spirit of basic income). It is a hard path to take emotionally but I am making progress.

> I contemplated doing something similar in London (not paying money per-se, but providing a location & good hardware for the students to use) but was kind of worried about ending up with an office full of freeloaders that just enjoy the amenities provided without caring about the curriculum itself.

This will happen. People will find a way to build a community with regular parties and alcohol and weed and other drugs will come in. Some students will start binge watching TV shows, start gaming, etc. You need to make sure to set some fundamental rules.

The way I plan to solve this (next year) could be very controversial, but I believe it based on my experiences so far: No internet until you finish the curriculum, no alcohol, no drugs. Maybe also no meat but that's still up in the air.

> I've experimented with a few people I know that are stuck in bullshit jobs and gave them hardware, software and any books/resources they'd need to learn programming, but while they are very grateful for it I haven't actually seen any progress or frankly even long-term motivation.

That's how I started and the reason why there is no long-term motivation is that there is nobody around them to help them manage their feelings. Once you help them manage their feelings, their drive is infinite.

If you want to talk more, shoot me a message in the chatroom on c0d3.com (my username is gnos), I'll be happy to share everything (curriculum, apps that powers the curriculum, vision, etc).

[Fiahil]

> The way I plan to solve this (next year) could be very controversial, but I believe it based on my experiences so far: No internet until you finish the curriculum, no alcohol, no drugs. Maybe also no meat but that's still up in the air.

Sounds like today’s version of a 17th century monastery. Maybe, you should push it further

[songzme]

that is the plan. No phones between 8am - 8pm, like a true bootcamp :)

[Avtomatk]

If this can help you ... From my own experience, I advise you that you should also ban music, external noises and any other distractions ... Basically to make your students bored and that the only thing that "entertains" them is to code in the computer.

By the way, I would be interested to know more about your project and its progress, if you could give me some form of contact I would greatly appreciate it.

[songzme]

hn at hoie dot kim