[elliekelly]

Do you not see programming as a trade? Do you not see accounting as a trade? Nursing? Medicine? Law? Pharmacology? I would consider all of those “trades.”

The non-trade courses of study aren’t particularly popular with college students anymore. I don’t know many people with degrees in english or latin or history or philosophy. And the few that I do always planned to go to trade school (law school) so their undergrad course of study didn’t much matter.

[chrisseaton]

> I would consider all of those “trades.”

Well good luck communicating with other people because is not how anyone else anywhere uses the word ‘trade’.

They’re not ‘trades’ they’re ‘professions’.

And I would guess you already know this and you’re trying to be contrary rather than you’re genuinely misunderstanding a basic word.

[jeffbee]

Computer software development has none of the characteristics of a profession, either. There's no licensure, no guild, no liability, and many people practice it without formal training.

The software industry would benefit from moving in the direction of being either a "trade" without the manual labor, or toward being a real profession, but it currently occupies a weird middle ground.

[ceilingcorner]

TBH I think this is a feature, not a bug. Over-credentializing coding will limit creativity. If you want a better existing paradigm, consider design (as in the broad field of design, which includes graphic, fashion, industrial, etc.)

[jeffbee]

That's fine with me because I favor the trade direction. I tell my mentees to make things in good taste that they're proud to show people, like a cabinet maker.

[room500]

After dealing with many legacy projects from "creative" developers, I don't think standardizing on some basic practices would be a bad thing

[jquery]

That might increase efficiency but I bet it would reduce joy. As someone who joined the industry for the joy aspect, not the efficiency and money aspect, that’s not very appealing to me. Besides, I think standardization is already happening and being rewarded in the form of higher salaries for people who are fluent in modern frameworks and practices.

[0xffff2]

>There's no licensure, no guild, no liability,

Those are all things that are near-universally features of working a trade, so what exactly is the difference between a trade and a profession?

[jeffbee]

You got me there. I guess I think of specific trades that don't have those aspects. As far as I am aware, you don't need a state license to be a machinist. But yes, you do need those things to be an electrician etc.

So I guess software development is just basically like bagging groceries. Totally informal.

[elliekelly]

See now I don’t think I’d consider grocery bagging a trade because there isn’t really any skill involved. You could pick just about any person off the street and they’d be able to bag groceries.

[908B64B197]

That makes recruiting a very fun game.

I wouldn't believe the stories on candidates failing FizzBuzz until I saw it with my own eyes, several times!

[elliekelly]

I’m not being contrary at all. Nor do I think I’ve grossly misunderstood the word. Haven’t you ever been to a trade show - a meeting of people from one profession?

I don’t think I’ve used the word outside of its definition:

> 3. b : the business or work in which one engages regularly : OCCUPATION

> 3. c : the persons engaged in an occupation, business, or industry

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trade

[chrisseaton]

If you take your definition then all jobs are trades, in which case why do you think we have the word trade if it doesn’t add any new meaning, and what do you think a ‘profession‘ is?

Have you never heard people make a distinction between tradespeople and professionals?

What do you think the words in this article mean? Are they completely new concepts to you?

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-man...

> A ‘profession’ historically meant the three learned professions of the Church, Medicine and the Law but today the term goes much wider and normally involves some substantial exercise of intellectual skill.

[elliekelly]

It’s quite unnecessary for you to be so condescending. Of course I’m familiar with other uses of the word. Are you? Why are you so upset by what I’ve said?

What is the distinction between a chef trained at a vocational school and a lawyer trained at a law school? Or a programmer trained at Stanford?

Chefs produce something tangible, you might say. Lawyers do, too. We draft briefs and contracts and court filings. Or maybe you’ll point out that a chef has learned a skill that takes a certain je ne sais quoi that cant be taught but can only be acquired with deliberate practice? I would say the same of programmers. (And attorneys, for that matter.) Coding is as much an art as it is a science.

And I don’t think the document you’ve linked excludes professional trades. Lawyers and doctors and programmers all provide a service:

> ‘Trade’ therefore takes its ordinary meaning, which normally involves commercial operations by a trader who provides goods or services to his or her customers in exchange for a reward.

[chrisseaton]

> What is the distinction between a chef trained at a vocational school and a lawyer trained at a law school?

One is considered by society to be a 'tradesperson', while the other is considered a 'professional'. Society considers law to not be a 'trade' because it is a 'profession' instead and society sees these as mutually exclusive by definition.

I think what you really mean is you don't agree with society's definitions. That's fine - it's an interesting discussion and I didn't express any opinion on it myself. But I don't think you were ever really mistaken about what the original comment meant - you were feigning confusion as a rhetorical device, which is why I think other people down-voted you.

[elliekelly]

Please don’t speak for me. I wasn’t “feigning” anything and I meant exactly what I said.

[unishark]

I'd say the defining feature of a trade show is businesses demonstrating their specialized products for members of the profession. The word "show" is also important here.

Without that, a meeting of a profession is commonly called a conference.

[kolbe]

The distinction is purely a classist one. But functionally speaking, going to nursing school (a trade school) and going to medical school (a professional school) are the same concept, but with one side rebranding themselves as to not be associated with the lower class variant of their work.

You’re right there is a legitimate distinction, but maybe we should stop. It is 2020 and thinking you’re “better” than other people for relatively arbitrary reasons is passé.

[chrisseaton]

Yes there's still some funny distinctions being made - like in the UK some apartments are advertised as 'professionals only' and only 'professionals, teachers, and police officers' are allowed to sign and witness some documents I believe for some reason.

[jeffbee]

Wow. In California it is not lawful to even advertise housing that way, much less actually enforce it.

[pmyteh]

The list of people who can witness passport applications in the UK is quite interesting. It's got all the usual jobs you'd expect (lawyers, doctors, clergy etc.) and then a set of other jobs which are wildly diverse: childminders, for example, accountants, military officers...

The common factor turns out to be accountability. If the childminder falsely certifies an application, Ofsted will revoke her registration for dishonesty. A military officer will be cashiered. A teacher sacked and added to the barring list. So even those posts which are not 'professional' have enough consequences for acting falsely that the state relies on them to be honest.

[ceilingcorner]

No one considers these things trades. Trades and trade school have a very specific meaning in contemporary American English.

[watwut]

I would not count them as trades, because people typically talk about trades when they talk about work that requires manual or mechanical skills.

I never seen anyone talk about medicine as a trade nor mean doctor when they said trade.