[wdroz]

> But from what I learned from underrepresented people during the years is that role models and identification plays a HUGE part in "making a free choice".

How about teaching kids to pick role models regardless of their gender or color?

[grx]

> How about teaching kids to pick role models regardless of their gender or color?

How would you do that? What is a role model in your opinion? Can you teach children to ignore their sex and color? Can you teach children to ignore external influences like media and advertisements? And what about parents? Can they be taught to shield their children from their own biases?

[manigandham]

Pretty sure children naturally ignore sex and color. They have to be taught to care about them.

[grx]

+1, and that is why the question "And what about parents?" might play an even bigger role than others.

[goatinaboat]

How would you do that? What is a role model in your opinion? Can you teach children to ignore their sex and color? Can you teach children to ignore external influences like media and advertisements?

By your definition, isn't the main characteristic of a role model, that they didn't need a role model of matching genitalia and skin pigmentation and dietary preference themselves? Otherwise how could anyone be the first?

So yeah, choosing a role model without regard to those things is perfectly possible, and not long ago was considered completely normal.

[grx]

> By your definition, isn't the main characteristic of a role model, that they didn't need a role model of matching genitalia and skin pigmentation and dietary preference themselves?

No, for me a role model is someone that I can relate to, leading me to imagine myself being in their position in some time in the future.

Do you mean that "role model" stands for a person who "has made it"? Then we differ here.

> Otherwise how could anyone be the first?

You have hit the nail on the head. That is the exact problem: what needs to be done to empower people to be "the first of their kind"?

> So yeah, choosing a role model without regard to those things is perfectly possible, and not long ago was considered completely normal.

This made me curious: did you have a role model yourself? Where do you take "not long ago was considered completely normal" from?

[goatinaboat]

This made me curious: did you have a role model yourself?

I'm BAME and Welsh and my role model was Scotty, who was white and Scottish. I consider myself to be completely normal. A million white kids idolise black sportsmen and musicians. It's completely normal, or it was.

It's only in the last few years that it's been race, race, race. From my perspective things have taken a huge step backwards. Take it from me, this "role model" stuff is harmful to the very people who you claim to want to help.

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Replying here as I am "posting too fast" (code for upsetting the moderators)

Yes, I believe that teaching people in general and children in particular that their skin pigmentation is their defining characteristic harms progress. I believe that teaching people that unless they have a matching role model they can't do something harms progress. I believe that hiring people to make up quotas harms progress. Things are worse now than they were 10 or 20 years ago in terms of race relations.

[grx]

Thank you for sharing your experience! I see "race" as a problematic variable as well. That's why I like to talk about origin, as in "what did the parents do?", "do the kids have access to careers outside of what their family showed them?".

When you say "taken a huge step backwards", do you mean the discussion actively harms progress? Or that you do not support the way it is discussed?

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adding to your edit:

> A million white kids idolise black sportsmen and musicians. It's completely normal, or it was.

If I see correctly, the choice of "identification variables" is what you primarily criticize (here: race). We don't differ here.

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adding to your second edit..:

> Yes, I believe that teaching people in general..

I'll take this with me, thank you!