[castevictim]

I am glad that Brazil's court still remains independent.

Looks like Bolsonaro, should borrow couple of tips from his friend Narendra Modi. Modi, dismantled the institutions in India systematically to guarantee his long lasting power.

e.g.

The only official from the election commission who didn't give a clean-chit to Modi for his election campaign violations during last election was greeted with Income Tax raids on his family members after the election, now he has been transferred to Asian Bank(He was next in line to become Chief Election Commissioner).

Look at the current Chief Justice of India, posing with limited edition Harley Davidson[0], which apparently was brought to him 'just for a demo by a local dealer and definitely does not belong to the son of a ruling party member'!

Former Chief Justice of India, has been given membership in parliament!

[0]https://theprint.in/india/photos-of-justice-bobde-astride-a-...

[gavribirnbaum]

Brazilian here. Unfortunately I wouldn't call them independent. They simply represent the other side. Brazil is not as united behind Bolsonaro as the media makes out to be.

[egeozcan]

I'm originally from Turkey, and that's also the case with Erdoğan. I mean, they wouldn't be dictators if everyone agreed with them, no?

The big problem arising from the stark polarization is that there's no uncontaminated news sources anymore. Many argue that news should be political anyway but I really miss reading stuff that doesn't fit 100 percent to a single agenda.

[gavribirnbaum]

Hold on, Bolsonaro is not a dictator. Federalism even recently screwed him over. He didn't act on COVID but individual states imposed their own measures and thankfully countered his opinion.

[lkrubner]

That's like saying Mussolini was not a dictator in 1922, because there were still so many factions competing against him in Italian politics. Possibly true, but it's also clear what direction he was heading. By 1925 he had largely consolidated his power.

[gavribirnbaum]

Well I'm also super concerned that he has expressed dictatorial aspirations. But as of right now the constitution holds.

[iandanforth]

"Super concerned?" The guy wanted to celebrate the coup that started the last dictatorship. Stop splitting hairs.

http://www.iconnectblog.com/2019/04/bolsonaros-unconstitutio...

Note: Trump's call for postponing the election is exactly the same thing. Evidence they have no interest in constitutional democracy and will, at the earliest possible moment, impose total control on the country.

[prox]

Polarization is exactly that, remove all gradients. Fascists like to make out everything is black-white. “Only siths deal in absolutes”

[wearsshoes]

I’ve always thought that quote itself was curiously absolute. ‘Only’, Yoda?

[monocasa]

That whole movie is about how the Jedi completely lost their way from millennia of stagnation to the point that they couldn't recognize the sith in their midsts anymore, and how their own well meaning influence contributed to their own downfall.

[nradov]

The Jedi were a death cult of religious fanatics who coerced child soldiers into fighting their wars of conquest.

[famouslastwords]

>I’ve always thought that quote itself was curiously absolute. ‘Only’, Yoda?

“Do. Or do not. There is no try.”

I always took it as Yoda unwittingly revealing himself as a Sith Lord. I mean, how much do we really know about this little fella's shady past? :D

[im3w1l]

> I mean, they wouldn't be dictators if everyone agreed with them, no?

A dictator's enemies are deplatformed and powerless. They are certainly not allowed to sit in top courts.

[oscargrouch]

There are 11 or 12 supreme court judges. While one or two may present some "tastes" here and there, overall, all of them together are doing a good job til now.

Gilmar Mendes sometimes free their rich pals from prison here and there, but in other matters hes not that bad.

Dias Toffoli also do some shady things here and there but some bad things he did got reverted back by the other judges.

I dont think is fair to say they "represent the other side", first because this gives a dichotomistic way to see things that are far too simplistic.

Also because as a Brazilian too, im very thankful for what the two other powers; judiciary and legislative, have being doing to put the executive at least in check.

The president is nuts, and the country is without any sort of leadership, and if it were only incompetence, but the problem is that this guy is trying by any means necessary to do a takeover move over the republic..

And if those other powers weren't in opposition, trying to defend the democratic institutions, we would be heading to some sort of Putin state.

So of course that nothing is perfect, but overall i've been positively surprised about what they have done so far.

[aflag]

They are free to not take the government side in all matters. So, how are they not independent?

[glofish]

Independence means something else. It means not beholden to certain interests.

Simply being in the pocket of the other party (opposition) does not make them independent.

(Disclaimer: I don't know if this is the case, simply commenting on the topic of independence)

[gavribirnbaum]

Last time I visited Brazil some 5 years ago, the courts would ban Whatsapp every couple months. They were in bed with telecom companies that hated that Whatsapp made many of their services free.

[ratww]

That's a wildly uninformed accusation.

There's a lot of problems with telecoms there, but WhatsApp actually has partnerships to enjoy "unlimited" bandwidth privileges with all four mobile operators in Brazil. Just checked and all four have such plans: Claro, Vivo, TIM and Oi.

The bans were because the courts were trying to coerce WhatsApp into responding to subpoenas.

[gavribirnbaum]

I'm not sure that was the case 4 years ago. They first tried to beat it before joining it.

The subpoenas were widely seen as a pretext among the population. It is Brazil: you have to read between the lines.

[ratww]

That's still sounds like a wild and unfounded accusation.

And that was partially already the case a few years ago:

TIM started free WhatsApp plans in 2014 [1].

Claro started in 2015 [2].

Oi started later, but it already had a similar plan in 2013 for Facebook Messenger, before WhatsApp acquisition [3].

Vivo seems to be the only holdout, starting in 2018, but that's far from proof that they were in bed with judges just to damage WhatsApp.

And frankly, "you have to read between the lines" sounds like code for unfounded conspiracy theories. Unfortunately something that is currently destroying the country.

[1] https://tecnoblog.net/170330/tim-controle-whatsapp-internet-...

[2] https://gizmodo.uol.com.br/claro-turbinada-detalhes/

[3] https://tecnoblog.net/131671/oi-facebook-messenger-de-graca/

[naivedevops]

You should try to remember the political scenario at the time. The Snowden leaks had generated an immense discomfort in Brazilian government regarding the fact that US based companies could just wiretap Brazilian communications. WhatsApp didn't have a subsidiary at Brazil, and Facebook Brazil used to say they didn't respond for WhatsApp matters. Since Brazilian justice didn't manage to get WhatsApp to answer subpoenas even for extremely low-profile cases, they tried to force their hand on them. The blocks were clearly a demonstration of force, trying to get companies providing services to Brazilians to obey Brazilian law at least to some extent.

[danilocesar]

This was not what happened. Whatsapp got banned by individual low-ranking-judges in low profile cases, which was unreasonable. Higher courts removed the ban pretty quick and made sure it won't happen again.

[gavribirnbaum]

I stand corrected then. Thanks for clarifying. I remember lots of talk about that back then and I was not aware of the details.

[shripadk]

The Print is a Congress party affiliated publication with many of its writers having affiliation in some form with the Indian National Congress. What you posted are just allegations/innuendos against Modi. Nothing more.

As far as Modi is concerned, he has been vilified for over 2 decades now. Enough crap has been said about him and none of it proven till date. He was not the Prime Minister for 1 full decade. If there was a shred of evidence against Modi that would have implicated him it would have gotten him behind bars. If you can't find even one case that can be taken to logical conclusion then the onus is on you to prove Modi is guilty and not on Modi to prove his innocence.

The Congress party ruled from 2004 to 2014. And they hate Modi the most in India. Especially the top brass of the party. They tried every trick in the book and nothing stuck. So to say that Modi has control over all institutions is just baseless slander. Nothing more!

The Print has openly advocated for spreading fake news against Modi Government [1]. I wouldn't even take them as a media publication. More a Congress mouthpiece.

Direct quote from their article:

"4. Compete: Across the world, fire-hosing of falsehood is becoming a powerful propaganda tool. Those who want to defeat such propaganda may have to do their own fire-hosing of falsehood. As the Hindi saying goes, iron cuts iron. When public opinion is being manipulated with fake news and lies, the opposition cannot win the game with mere fact-checking. It may have to do its own rapid and continuous misinformation with little regard for the truth. The RAND researchers suggest this is what the US should do against Russia."

[1]: https://theprint.in/opinion/why-modi-government-gets-away-wi...

[dannyr]

Add Duterte to that list. He appointed 11 out of 15 justices to the Philippine Supreme Court.

[sukilot]

Interesting but off-topic. Submit a new top-level post.

[sizeofchar]

There is nothing independent with Brazil’s court. They are just dismantling the executive powers so they and their own can be kept on power.

In Brazil, the Supreme Court is filled by presidential choice. Brazil had 25 consecutive years with social democratic and socialists presidents, so that every justice currently have been put there by them. Now that democracy turned to the right-wing, the losers aren’t accepting the results and the reforms being made, that takes out their privileges and positions of power.

I know barely nothing about India, but what you described certainly is not correlated to what is happening in Brazil.

[gavribirnbaum]

True. You cannot expect the judicial to be apolitical if it is appointed by the other two highly political branches of government. But we pretend it is apolitical in Brazil and in the US.

[mc32]

There is a difference between political philosophy and being political.

A judge may be liberal or conservative but it doesn’t follow that they would represent a party platform.

[fiatjaf]

You're glad that this independent court is censoring people?

[Barrin92]

Yes, as in this case the posts in question include direct physical threats like threatening the children of judges with murder and rape.

Using social media to threaten physical violence against Bolsonaro's opponents has been a theme all throughout his time in power.

[sizeofchar]

Absolutely none of the censored did threat with physical aggressions. It is quite the opposite.

Bolsonaro was stabbed, and almost died, by a leftist activist, with former link to a far left party, PSOL.

Dirceu, the strategist head of PT, the main opposition to Bolsonaro, gave an interview recently saying that “it is time to retake position of power, which is not the same as winning the elections”.

Marcelo Freixo, currently the most popular politician from PSOL, was saying the left can’t simply resist the right, but must work to destroy it.

Alexandre de Moraes, the justice that is censoring brazilians worldwide was for more than 15 years advocate to criminals pertaining to PCC, the biggest drug smugglers mafia in Brazil. He was put in the court after a very suspect plane crash which killed a justice that was incriminating our last former president, Michel Temer.

[farias0]

Dirceu's quote was retracted and said to be unfortunate. Also he was talking about a scenario where Bolsonaro executed a military coup.

Freixo meant that about Bolsonarismo, not the right. Which is a sentiment I agree.

Your claim about Alexandre de Moraes is conspiracy theory, there's no serious reason to believe he's involved on Zavascki's death.

Yeah, Bolsonaro was stabbed by a nutjob, and STF's ministers and family constantly receive threats from people online. Both affirmations are true, although that's not the reason for the censoring in question.

I completely agree STF went to far in this matter and it's worrying that they're starting to feel comfortable censoring speech. But nothing you said related to it. It feels like you're trying to imply "see, it's the left that's actually violent", which is not only unfaithful to the general public discourse in Brazil but also contributes to polarization without adding nothing to the discussion in hand.

[sizeofchar]

> Yeah, Bolsonaro was stabbed by a nutjob, and STF's ministers and family constantly receive threats from people online. Both affirmations are true, although that's not the reason for the censoring in question.

None of the censored made threats to any ministers, other than legal political activism. I would be surprised if you could link to just one occurrence of threat to ministers.

What is unfaithful is to say otherwise. The left in Brazil IS violent, period. They have a history with terrorism, in 70’s, agency with Cuba and USSR, the murdering of deserters (see Celso Daniel’s case), money laundering to finance despotic government abroad third world and their own plan “to be kept permanently on power“ - Dirceu again, has he retracted that as well?

[farias0]

https://congressoemfoco.uol.com.br/justica/suspeito-de-ameac...

https://jc.ne10.uol.com.br/politica/2020/06/5612890-alexandr...

Although I made clear that these threats are not the reason of the censorship in question.

And "the right" actually executed plans to keep themselves permanently in power with all the violence that entails, but it's not fair to associate everyone that subscribes to "the right" with the military coup.

And this is an especially dishonest claim to be made in times where the most important and beloved right-wing figure in Brazilian politics openly defends this military regime [0], violence against the opposition [1], domestic violence (spanking children) [2], police violence, and is even associated with violent militia [3]. Had you said that during PT vs. PSDB times it would be damaging, unfruitful and a gross generalization, but at least it would have some basis on the real public discourse.

[0] https://veja.abril.com.br/politica/doze-vezes-em-que-bolsona...

[1] https://exame.com/brasil/vamos-fuzilar-a-petralhada-diz-bols...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJNy08VoLZs

[3] https://theintercept.com/2019/01/22/bolsonaros-milicias/

[pyuser583]

This is a problem with censorship. If the posts weren’t censored, we could look at them and see what they said.

Instead we have to speculate.

[scroogeydop]

Believe it or not, censorship can be good.

[cscurmudgeon]

This is why I come to Hacker News.

Absence of irrelevant political motivated posts with flimsy evidence.