[AaronFriel]

I think their concern was well-founded and the reason identity and politics have become so intertwined is because "the personal is political".

In Iran, homosexuality has been punished by imprisonment, torture, and execution. People who are gay in Iran do not have the luxury of being able to go and visit, they live under that threat every day. And many countries in the Middle East have similar policies and their gay population - rarely out - live under similar threat.

Wanting to go study the beautiful works of art in Iran is brave. As an atheist, it would be dangerous for me to do so as well, and yet the Islamic scientific and cultural golden age is still quite interesting to me.

But yet, it's still true that many, perhaps most of them "hate my kind" over there. Atheism is also punishable by execution in several countries in the Arabic speaking world. If I told friends I wanted to go study and live in Iran and they were concerned and asked me that question, I don't think it'd be disproportionate. If they said it was brave, I don't think I'd dispute it.

(Though in all fairness and perhaps you find this cringeworthy, I am fortunate and privileged in that being a straight atheist in these countries is a lot easier than being gay, and being gay and Muslim might actually exacerbate the threat.)

[davidzweig]

I studied in Iran for a couple of months and travelled a lot around the country as an anglophone atheist (that happens to speak Farsi). I don't think anyone ever asked me about religion. Everyone was nice.

[AaronFriel]

In a handful of countries around the world, including Iran, being non-religious is considered blasphemous and can be punished by death.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10...

[intopieces]

There's the law, and then there's the law's practical application. These rarely line up, especially for foreigners. Iran isn't really interested in making world news by executing foreigners.

[RonanTheGrey]

Exactly, and it's also worth mentioning that alot of these types of laws exist to create criminals when one is needed, and not to preemptively seek out violators. That's not necessarily morally any better, but at least it removes the spectre of "I'm going to get killed the instant I land at the airport" feeling that seems to be so common.

[AaronFriel]

> Exactly, and it's also worth mentioning that alot of these types of laws exist to create criminals when one is needed,

How on Earth does that make it better in any way? That is the hallmark of any fascist or authoritarian state. That these type of laws exist to punish cultural outliers does not make them just or right.

I feel like I'm the upside down here, why are people in any way defending actual thought crime laws in countries like Iran? In what universe is it acceptable for the state to make not believing in something a crime punishable by death?

[playpause]

> How on Earth does that make it better in any way? [...] That these type of laws exist to punish cultural outliers does not make them just or right.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that GP was saying that? Did you read sentence 2 of 2, in which he clarifies he was not making a moral comparison? If you feel you’re in the upside down, it’s because you’re reading something that isn’t there. Not everything you encounter must be immediately classified as ‘for’ or ‘against’ whatever moral issue you currently feel passionate about. Nuance exists.

[RonanTheGrey]

cough might want to read the second sentence.

[davidzweig]

I have non-religious Iranian friends, living in Iran, that will share their views with others and certainly do not live in fear of their lives. It is a complex topic however. Much of what a western person might associate with 'religion' is better attributed to 'culture'. Openly rejecting all cultural norms, unlikely to go well, foreigner or local, Iran or elsewhere. Your comment does not provide meaningful understanding and rather misleads.

[AaronFriel]

I have met people from middle eastern countries who are apostates, a crime punishable by death. They fear for their life and the history of executions in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, to name two of several, is clear.

It is undeniably true that in Iran and several other countries, blasphemy and apostasy is a crime. A real, actual thought crime which the state punishes with violence.

[davidzweig]

So it's the state you are concerned about? Not common Iranians?

>> Wanting to go study the beautiful works of art in Iran is brave. As an atheist, it would be dangerous for me to do so... But yet, it's still true that many, perhaps most of them [Iranians] "hate my kind" over there.

In practical terms, for your trip to Iran, US citizenship is a more likely source of potential issues than your religious beliefs.

[AaronFriel]

Yes, I am more concerned about authoritarian states than individuals generally.

And yes, my passport would pose a bigger problem for me on first blush. But even for a European in Iran. Or an Iranian in Iran, apostasy is a crime and one that can be severely punished. We should decry that as a threat to freedom of thought and religion.