[lymeeducator]

Our immune systems are very complex and unique! If you want to apply scientific method and improve outcomes (safety, efficacy), then there is a lot more data to collect. Sharing that data and allowing recipients to own their data, would go a long way towards improving vaccine safety and allow for customization as needed. My children have had ~minor/moderate reactions to the varicella vaccine (fluid on my son's hip joint ~2" from injection site at 23 days--ER doctors just shrug), my daughter a moderate rash. How could these be improved? Guillain-Barre is very real side effect as well. How can it be avoided? I accumulate metals easily, so Al, a potent neurotoxin hangs out in my system much longer than others (possible/probable HLA variant). Shouldn't the adjuvant for my vaccines exclude Al?

Measuring temperature & physical symptoms is a good start. It would be great if these trials would measure each recipients HLA SNPs (see GSK MERS 2009 fiasco and others), T-cells (CD4/8/57/etc), inflammation markers like C3a,C4a,TGF-b, MMP-9, and cytokines like TNF-a -- before and after each vaccine dose. Measuring for all ingredients pre-post each dose is also important because the metabolization for each component is not uniform. Stop using 2010+ technology to make vaccines & medications and then evaluating the applied result with 1990s (or earlier) methods.

So if you want to shut up 'anti-vaxxers' than collect/share the data from everyone who receives a vaccine and improve the process instead of shrouding results or conducting half-assed studies (AstraZeneca using meningitis vaccine as control instead of true placebo).

[wyattpeak]

Spending a bunch more time collecting data to convince people who reflexively put their fingers in their ears when presented with evidence seems a decidedly wrong-headed approach.

[mennis16]

I agree it doesn't make sense for the purpose of convincing anti-vaxxers. But I do think sometimes valuable research topics end up getting thrown out "with the bathwater" so to speak when the general public gets too wrapped up in a pseudoscientific interpretation (especially when that interpretation was originally supported by some poorly done or fraudulent published research).

For example, galvanic skin response was used for very bullshit purposes, which led to research on it essentially stopping for over a decade. But recently it has been rebranded as "electrodermal activity", and turns out to have use for studying Epilepsy as well as other promising potential use cases (such as improving sleep staging without EEG).

I am less aware of literature on side effects for current vaccines, so I don't know if this same phenomenon has happened. But I wouldn't be surprised if certain lines of thinking are reflexively stomped down right now.

Maybe this just needs to be the natural life cycle of science though, it might be for the greater good to let anti-vax die down before doing anything which could stoke their flames.

[lymeeducator]

Spending time collecting data is for improving our understanding of an individual's immune system. Sharing that data helps educate those who are unfamiliar with, but have complete ownership of their body.

[jbob2000]

Data needs a narrative attached, otherwise it's just noise. There is a point where adding more data doesn't change the narrative, so it's pointless to continue gathering data.

[lymeeducator]

Are the immune responses to the vaccine identical across the trial group? No. Is everyone's response to sars-cov-2 identical? No. Is everyone's immune system unique in its signaling and adaptive behavior? Yes. How is it possible to correlate immune responses by measuring 0.000x percent of the available data? We do not have complete understanding of our immune systems, thus we need more data and most of it can be relevant.

[jbob2000]

Ok, you can sit in a corner for the next 1000 years while all of that data is gathered for you. A glimpse at your username suggests you have intense bias with regards to the human body and its immune system.

[jbritton]

I watched an interview with an individual who after receiving a tetanus shot developed transverse myelitis. His immune system started destroying his spinal cord. He was young, healthy, athletic, and had previously received tetanus shots without issue. He is now wheel chair bound, can barely move and is in intense pain 24/7. The injection caused every muscle in his body to spasm causing unbearable pain.

One big question about this for me is wondering if any group is looking for why this happened. I feel that either the pharmaceutical company or the government should be spending significant research dollars understanding what happened in this case.

It also shows that vaccines are not 100% safe, which seems to be the general narrative. When the truth maybe something more like you have a 1 in 10 million chance of living the rest of your life in agony, but you are required to accept the risk for the good of everyone.

So maybe collecting the blood markers suggested by the parent poster would be a step in understanding why things go so badly for some people.

[lbeltrame]

> (AstraZeneca using meningitis vaccine as control instead of true placebo).

AFAICR, this was done on purpose to prevent people from figuring out they got a vaccine shot, because an inert placebo wouldn't cause any side effects.

[lymeeducator]

A shot with saline would help demonstrate some of the side effects (localized aches or damage to the muscle), but would not elicit the same response as different vaccine with roughly known side effects (feedback on vaccine administration reactions is far from ideal). The other possibility is minimizing the appearance of side effects by comparing against the control group.