[mahaganapati]

As a Hindu I'd like to take the opportunity to share that the implementation of the caste system is not based on what it really means to be Hindu. The Vedas state that one's caste is fluid (not based on lineage) and can change in one's lifetime, and that further a person of the worker class is not lesser than someone of the priest caste, they both perform dharma necessary for the community.

[rutherblood]

Not an expert on the Vedas thus not sure if any value judgement is made regarding the varnas in it or not but I am definitely SURE it nowhere says that all "varnas" are equal and that mobility between varnas is possible or based on one's "merit". the varna division just by articulation implies a hierarchy. Who wouldn't see the priestly class, the keepers of knowledge, as superior than the sewage workers? Saying that the Vedas say that caste is not based on lineage is utmost tomfoolery. Show me any instance in history where this mobility has been possible; is or was there some kind of "merit committee" in India who decides which caste you belong to, that i have heard nothing of? Which brahmin or other upper caste parent would willingly let their child be judged for which caste they should belong to by merit, be this at any point in history or present? By saying this all you are doing is revising history and saving the face of scripture you deem "holy" and "flawless". At the very least Vedas are definitely not the latter.

[mahaganapati]

This is from "Living with Siva":

> The original caste system had these four divisions. The divisions were all based on the ability of the individual to manage his body, his mind and his emotions properly. If he stopped fulfilling the dharma of his caste, society would recognize that he had moved from one caste and was now in another. The original caste system was based on self-discipline through education and through personal sadhana. The original caste system was based on the unfoldment of the consciousness within each individual through the fourteen chakras.

> People everywhere naturally divide themselves up into castes. We have the workers. You go to work, you work under somebody else--that happens all over the world--that's the shudra caste. We have the merchants, who are self-motivated. That's the vaishya caste. We have the politicians and the lawmakers and the law-enforcement people. That's the kshatriya caste. And then you have the priests, the ministers, the missionaries. That's the brahmin caste. Every society has these four castes working within it in one way or another. In today's world, if one is not fulfilling the dharma of his born caste, then he changes castes. For instance, if a brahmin husband and wife are working eight to fifteen hours a day in a hospital under others, they are no longer of the brahmin caste, because they are not performing the duties of the dharma of that caste. They are workers, in the shudra caste.

[mahaganapati]

How are you definitely sure of this while simultaneously claiming you don't know very much about the Varna system as the Vedas outline it?

You're also missing my point - of course people have abused the Varna system, but that's not how it has been described that it should be so.

[vms20591]

People should stop defending the caste system. I've seen people explain it on FB like how it was misconstrued or what we see today came from the British.

Call it out for what it is, even if it was in the Vedas, literature or God said it personally. We should change our beliefs as we mature, take what's right or question what's not.

It was never about a person's role, it was a tool of oppression by a group that wanted to rule over others, where each sub-group did this to groups below them and so on. People who had the same color, kept other people of same color below them, because they were from a lower caste. This is worse than racism.

If it wasn't that worse, then the constitution of India wouldn't have articles prohibiting caste based discrimination or declaring untouchability illegal.

Even if the caste system that is today was from the British or Mughals, people did follow it for centuries under their rule. Why didn't they follow their dharma and treate those from other caste with dignity? It doesn't make sense. In reality, British and the Mughals used the existing system for their own advantage, to divide and rule.

Even if we have laws to prevent caste discrimination, unless it goes out the window socially, we would regress back to the dark ages.

[mahaganapati]

> We can see around us the deterioration of the system which has been abused beyond the point of recognition. Members of the brahmin caste are now beating their children, abusing their wives. Members of the kshatriya caste disrespect the laws of the land. Members of the business caste are deceptive and dishonest. All are confused, living in anger and in jealousy. No wonder their families break apart and their businesses fail. In the eyes of the Gods, most of those who adhere to the caste system that exists today are low caste. This is because they live in lower consciousness. They look at the world through the windows of the chakras below the muladhara. These undeveloped humans are struggling through the lower chakras, trying to get out of the dark worlds of the mind. Let us not be deluded about what the sapta rishis had in mind when they casted humans according to the soul's unfoldment in one or more of the fourteen chakras. We should totally ignore the Hindu caste system as lived in India today and, through example, show a better and more wholesome path for modern society.

From "Living with Siva"

[tesseracted]

I'm also Hindu. It's quite obvious that caste and lineage are immanent within much of our cultural patrimony. I don't mean to get into an ideological debate but there is no point to this pretense.

[mahaganapati]

Sorry, to which pretense?

[pankajdoharey]

The word for caste in sanskrit is Varna, which literally means 'Colour', it is a colour based racial system. Otherwise I dont see what purpose does it serve other than classifying people like a canines.

[mahaganapati]

It's to help society be more organized so that we can collectively work together better.

> The original caste system had these four divisions. The divisions were all based on the ability of the individual to manage his body, his mind and his emotions properly. If he stopped fulfilling the dharma of his caste, society would recognize that he had moved from one caste and was now in another. The original caste system was based on self-discipline through education and through personal sadhana. The original caste system was based on the unfoldment of the consciousness within each individual through the fourteen chakras.

> People everywhere naturally divide themselves up into castes. We have the workers. You go to work, you work under somebody else--that happens all over the world--that's the shudra caste. We have the merchants, who are self-motivated. That's the vaishya caste. We have the politicians and the lawmakers and the law-enforcement people. That's the kshatriya caste. And then you have the priests, the ministers, the missionaries. That's the brahmin caste. Every society has these four castes working within it in one way or another. In today's world, if one is not fulfilling the dharma of his born caste, then he changes castes. For instance, if a brahmin husband and wife are working eight to fifteen hours a day in a hospital under others, they are no longer of the brahmin caste, because they are not performing the duties of the dharma of that caste. They are workers, in the shudra caste.

From "Living with Siva"

[pankajdoharey]

I guess it was working very efficiently at dividing the society which made it very easy for outside forces to conquer India multiple times. India has seen so many waves of invasion where Indians are fighting other Indians.

[mahaganapati]

I think that's an oversimplification. The varna dharma system was no in place universally, as all over the world, humans are still human and subject to corruption.

[pankajdoharey]

Classification is segregation if people are free to take any job there is no classification required. It was a short sighted system, a modern economy works by people participating in it by exchange of skill/work for money. There is no scientists caste , no computer programmer caste all that exists is peoples skills, ability to up skill and take a job as they qualify. Todays Programmer could be tomorrows priest, CEO or politician. Also economy and society as a result is much wider than 4 Groups of the Hindu caste system. It is a terrible system no matter how you look at it. My understanding is it was a reservation for Jobs for certain class of people from them to their sons and daughters which was codified in religious texts or law giving books of the time. Not only something like that vicious but out right unethical.

[jeswin]

Caste system can find its roots in Hindu texts, although just like other religious texts it is possible to defend it interpretation. For example, Shambuka's story [1]. In any case, the only credible interpretation will be to see the implementation in practice.

Caste system is modern day slavery or worse, and unless you're Indian (and especially unless you're from a caste lower down the hierarchy) it's difficult to comprehend. It's woven into the social fabric - even people's names carry their caste so it's often possible to discriminate or favor immediately on introduction. People usually do not marry castes lower in the hierarchy, so this is perpetuated over generations. It's changing, but not fast enough.

For those who are unfamiliar:

- Untouchability still exists in a big way in India. Even today, many Brahmins don't touch (or share meals, space etc) with Shudras. Yeah, not kidding.

- Caste based discrimination at the work place is rampant. Which is a big reason why there are fewer lower castes in the org hierarchy.

- Violence against lower castes happen every day.

- The situation continues to be so bad that there exist elaborate laws to make sure you don't get insulted or harmed over caste. [2]

- Caste is (nearly always) assigned at birth.

Finally, I don't wanna get into Godwin's law territory. But Indians should refrain from arguing about the merits of the caste system, in the same way nobody ever says "but Nazism isn't all bad."

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambuka

[2]: https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/globalcaste/caste0801-03.ht...

[dis-sys]

are you defending the caste system?

[__init]

It sounds like he's defending _a_ caste system, but probably not the one you're thinking of.

[mahaganapati]

No, the other reply has it right - I'm just pointing out that what we see of as the caste system is not what is originally intended. It should not be about inequality

[Bang2Bay]

caste system would have no problems. Caste discrimination is the problem. Every religion and Entire world has caste system in one form or the other. otherwise there would be no fights.

[ignoramous]

> Every religion and Entire world has caste system in one form or the other.

Except one thing isn't like another. If you think otherwise, I'd appreciate examples.

> caste system would have no problems. Caste discrimination is the problem.

That's like saying, apartheid isn't the problem, the ensuing discrimination is?