[rukittenme]

The problem isn't remediation for an injustice. The problem is the overt and explicitly racial language and philosophy behind your arguments for remediation. The problem is the inability to remediate history. There is no such thing as cosmic justice.

[baddox]

Are you saying that, unlike other injustices where we as a society generally approve of at least attempting to correct the injustice, this particular injustice is unique, and we shouldn't even attempt to remediate? Or do you oppose all attempts to correct past injustices because "cosmic justice" doesn't exist? I don't hope for cosmic justice, I think justice is up to us humans.

Nothing about my argument relies on racial language or philosophy, any more than my argument for returning stolen property relies on "'thief'-like language or philosophy." My argument for remediation is simply that the injustice occurred, and I think our society should attempt to correct this past injustice just like other past injustices.

[rukittenme]

> Nothing about my argument relies on racial language or philosophy.

It does because you're relying on racial identity to determine who pays and who receives rather than who stole and who was stolen from. The matter of who did what to whom is "settled" in the sense that all parties are dead.

> I don't hope for cosmic justice, I think justice is up to us humans.

What is your solution to the "stolen land" problem?

[refurb]

What is your solution to the "stolen land" problem?

I am by no means an expert, but I think the recent SC case is probably the right approach. I don't see why the US government should not be held to the treaties they signed - I mean, the court still relies on law settled centuries ago.

And if the gov't can't hold up their end, then restitution is reasonable. However, I wouldn't restitute based on today's value just because the tribal land is Manhattan now. But it would seem fair to make them whole based on if the treaty had been fairly followed.

[baddox]

> It does because you're relying on racial identity to determine who pays and who receives rather than who stole and who was stolen from.

I did not say or imply this.

[rukittenme]

The question remains. How do you solve the problem of historical injustice? Focusing specifically on land stolen from Native Americans by European settlers.

[krapp]

There probably isn't an easy, simple or universally acceptable answer.

But... the US taking its treaty obligations with native peoples as seriously as it does with other nations would be a good start.

[rukittenme]

As I said yesterday in our conversation, we are in agreement there but I'm not quite sure it solves the problem. A "good start" isn't a solution to the problem and even the "good start" requires enforcing some form of racial governance model otherwise its just another county of the United States.

The situation is at the very least complex and will likely require a "morally impure" solution.

[baddox]

I don't have the experience to suggest specifics, but I think more government aid programs targeted to Native American communities is a good start. I don't pretend that there's some way of perfectly undoing the land distribution, but I also don't claim that there is absolutely nothing that can or should be done.

[rukittenme]

If you want to provide government aid to poor communities then by all means do it. But let's not pretend that welfare even approximates a solution to the problem. There is likely no solution.

Well... aside from letting go of past injustices and instead focusing on some better future. Which isn't really a solution at all since it relies on the permanent good will of all future generations.