[AnthonyMouse]

So let the seats be empty. That will make the constituents mad and they'll vote out the incumbents and replace them with somebody who will appoint Senators. Or they won't. People get the government they deserve.

And if there are "concerns about corruption" then investigate the corruption and put the perpetrators (if any) in prison.

[icebraining]

> People get the government they deserve.

It's strange to say this when you are proposing to take away their direct vote on the matter. If anything, the current system is what gives people the government they deserve, by having voted on it.

[8note]

Moreso, people deserve the government that they have, thus, there's no reason to make this change

[joshuamorton]

And in the 4 years where the seats are empty? Or the year where the state can pass no state level legislation? (Both of those actually happened, hence the immense popular support by the states for adopting the 17th amendment)

Not to mention that the holdover/compromise from the original way things worked (replacement appointment by the Governor) resulted in perhaps the most famous recent example of executive misconduct by a Governor: Rod Blagojevich.

[AnthonyMouse]

> And in the 4 years where the seats are empty? Or the year where the state can pass no state level legislation?

But whose problems are these? The people who elected the state legislators who did them, right? There is a preexisting solution for that problem.

The voters can vote for representatives who are willing to compromise and appoint a moderate, or they can vote for representatives who are willing to engage in brinkmanship and then get nothing, and either way they got what they voted for.

> Not to mention that the holdover/compromise from the original way things worked (replacement appointment by the Governor) resulted in perhaps the most famous recent example of executive misconduct by a Governor: Rod Blagojevich.

...who then went to prison. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[joshuamorton]

> But whose problems are these? The people who elected the state legislators who did them, right? There is a preexisting solution for that problem.

We see federal representatives rewarded for brinkmanship. What makes you think state level electorates would act differently? (And in fact I expect there's lots of examples of brinkmanship in state electorates as well, I just don't follow them closely).

A representation system that fails to represent is dysfunctional and should be changed. When the same system consistently fails to represent its constituency, for the same reason, across various constituencies at various times, you can no longer fault the people. The constituents should not be punished for being born into a dysfunctional system.

Don't place the founders on a pedestal. They made tons of mistakes. The 3/5ths compromise was terrible, but it was encoded into the constitution. We learned from it and improved. State managed senators, while less overtly awful, were still quite problematic. Celebrate that the constitution can be changed.

[AnthonyMouse]

> We see federal representatives rewarded for brinkmanship. What makes you think state level electorates would act differently?

So what if they do? It's what their constituents voted for. Who's to say brinkmanship is never an optimal strategy?

> A representation system that fails to represent is dysfunctional and should be changed.

So change it by voting for different state legislators.

> Celebrate that the constitution can be changed.

Just because something can be done doesn't make it a good idea.

[joshuamorton]

> So what if they do? It's what their constituents voted for. Who's to say brinkmanship is never an optimal strategy?

If you're going to argue that "it's what their constituents voted for" you have to apply that evenly: the consituents got so fed up with this issue that they elected legislators who changed the constitution. No easy feat.

> So change it by voting for different state legislators.

They did, they made it such an issue that their legislators ended up ratifying a constitutional amendment.

> Just because something can be done doesn't make it a good idea.

This applies equally in both directions. "It was that way first" isn't a merit, especially when "It was that way first" also applies to slavery.

[AnthonyMouse]

> If you're going to argue that "it's what their constituents voted for" you have to apply that evenly: the consituents got so fed up with this issue that they elected legislators who changed the constitution. No easy feat.

It's two different questions -- does the system do what the constituents want (possibly yes), and what do we as the present day constituents want? The answer to which is not, from what I can gather, the status quo.

> They did, they made it such an issue that their legislators ended up ratifying a constitutional amendment.

Technically they didn't. It was the then-appointed Senate who approved the amendment (and by and large without having been replaced with different people), and they only did so out of fear of rising populist sentiment and what would happen if there was a constitutional convention in that climate. So they were basically doing their job and moderating populist sentiment, but apparently the anti-populist safeguards weren't strong enough to constrain populist sentiment from weakening them even further in that way.

> This applies equally in both directions. "It was that way first" isn't a merit, especially when "It was that way first" also applies to slavery.

Your argument was "celebrate that the constitution can be changed" as if any change is inherently good. But change can make things worse too. Before there was slavery there was not slavery.

Your main criticism also seems to be that the seats were going vacant, so the solution I would offer would be to hold a popular election but only if there has been no appointment within six months. Then the seat can't go vacant long but you're not, in the common case, taking away the seat of the states in the federal government.

[mcv]

Or just have the legislatures vote. The two candidates with the higher number of votes get to represent that state. With some luck, every state will be represented by one Republican and one Democratic senator. That should help to remove some of the party politics out of the senate.

[AnthonyMouse]

Don't even get me started on voting systems.

TL;DR: Just use range voting and put in the candidate with the highest rating. (Note that Senators' terms are staggered so there aren't two up from the same state at the same time, but if there were you could easily send the two with the highest ratings instead of the one.)