[bdhe]

The reason the other commentator thinks your post is bullshit because it doesn't address the clause in the order that requires F-1 students currently already in the country to leave if classes are online-only. This order is not done by some agency being thoughtful about covid19, it's about using the pandemic to put out more xenophobia that the WH will more than approve.

[aaomidi]

Thank you. I just didn't see a point in discussing this further.

Isolationism and enforcing an extra set of standards on __others__ is always disgusting to me. Especially when we've been failing at every step of the way of this pandemic.

[bdhe]

True. You'll see later that the commenter simultaneously holds the view that covid is overblown but also that we need to move heaven and earth to save schoolchildren, while I bet they're in full support of Trump's asinine "SCHOOLS MUST OPEN!" tweet.

[eiji]

But I am addressing it. You cannot make circumstancial exemptions like "if you are currently in the country" to a merit based visa. That way the whole thing can be struck down in court.

And again, we are negatively impacting the entire population with very draconian rules and lock downs. Heavy handedness all around. But somehow none essential foreign influx is just fine? They can come if they have to, clearly.

People are really measuring all this by two standards. If you think it's okay for citizens to be impacted by necessary lock downs, parents not working due to young children staying home, but foreign students are cozy in their home office?

[bdhe]

You're being disingenuous. They already had an exception through Spring and Summer 2020. No one batted an eyelid. They're removing the exception they had to a stricter by-the-book enforcement for no particular reason except to use the opportunity to kick out more foreigners. I see that as a plainly xenophobic motivation.

> People are really measuring all this by two standards. If you think it's okay for citizens to be impacted by necessary lock downs, parents not working due to young children staying home, but foreign students are cozy in their home office?

I think this phrasing is completely devoid of empathy. Students in a foreign country typically having taken big loans and paying through their teeth are in a much more vulnerable position than citizens. There's no reason to compare one set of circumstances with another.

At the end, universities will be forced to offer some portion of their courses as in-person which will only make the pandemic worse. Do you think these measures are making the country safer if that happens?

[eiji]

> I see that as a plainly xenophobic motivation.

Why is that? The pandemic drags on. Half of the country remains under severe restrictions. Schools and summer camps are still mostly none-existent. Why would a country continue with exemptions when similar privileges are not granted by many originating countries?

> Students ... paying through their teeth ...

Do you have any sources for those students typically paying through their teeth?

While other countries close their borders to visa holders due to the pandemic, we don't do that in most cases. Only if your particular institution doesn't need you to be here. This rule is not void of fairness. It's compromising a difficult situation.

I'm not naïve about the bigger picture, which certainly doesn't make this any easier. We have a gravy train setup for higher education, with students paying full tuition, often displacing the local population. We have higher ed with signaling power to schools across the country. We have political disagreements with the biggest origin country. And we have a pandemic.

If there is just one student saved from coming here, that would've caused an elementary school to go into a month long covid19 shutdown in September, then this by-the-book enforcement is worth it to me. I would never assume a University would adjust their attendance plans for a semester just for foreign students alone. That wouldn't be very rational, or would it be?

* https://www.statista.com/statistics/233880/international-stu...

* https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/...

[bdhe]

I don't understand why responses of other countries weigh into the US's response. There are good reasons to have restrictions, there's no good reason not to continue to relax their strict interpretation.

> Do you have any sources for those students typically paying through their teeth?

Not at the moment. I encourage you to read up on where funding for US universities typically comes from. I also would encourage you to try to be empathetic towards an immigrant student in this country.

> We have a gravy train setup for higher education, with students paying full tuition, often displacing the local population.

This is conveniently `othering` framing. Displacing the local population? The ones whose jobs and livelihoods depend entirely on the college towns economy? I'm afraid you're picking and choosing facts and painting a narrative that either assuages your discomfort with what's happening, or worse, betrays a complete lack of empathy.

> If there is just one student saved from coming here, that would've caused an elementary school to go into a month long covid19 shutdown in September, then this by-the-book enforcement is worth it to me. I would never assume a University would adjust their attendance plans for a semester just for foreign students alone. That wouldn't be very rational, or would it be?

I'm sorry, it's hard to engage with this sort of reductive black and white thinking while the same administration still doesn't have a national mask mandate and is still planning to have the RNC convention in a place like Florida. Occam's razor suggests that the simpler explanation, far more consistent with the administration's past actions on DACA, asylum seekers, and recently, skilled immigrant workers -- xenophobia. You really have to cherry pick a convoluted narrative to avoid seeing this.

I think you're being nakedly disingenuous considering your past comments such as this:

> For 2.5 month now we are always two weeks away from a catastrophe with mass graves and hospital parking lots full of dead people. And then two weeks pass and nothing really happens. Reality just doesn't seem to square up with the fearmongering.

And now, even if one person might have caused a chain event you want to shut out potentially close to a million kids looking to educate themselves?

[eiji]

I appreciate having a discussion. It's very simple to to paint an opinion as xenophobic. I think that is too easy. And a sign of our times to cancel people, opinions and debates.

If people are concerned about half a million adults educating themselves, than please also be concerned about 100 million people of a country trying to make it through a difficult time. Black and white thinking is all there seems to be these days. Either we close schools and businesses, or we don't. Either we allow the beach, or we don't. But whenever it suits we put on our refined thinking hat and try to think about all the consequences.

If a person supports closing schools, closing businesses and to not have political gatherings, all of which impacts hundreds of millions of people in the US alone, but finds excuses for exemptions, that for me would be a convoluted narrative. You quote an earlier comment of mine. Which is still valid. I made it two weeks ago and look around you. Are we accommodating peoples lives, all of them, or are we not. If you don't want to accommodate a gym instructor, nail salon owner, or working parents with what they need, its hard to get the policies you want, or the country you want. You want to prevent the spread with heavy handed measures, ruining peoples lives, and at the same time walk a fine line for expat students and protesters? You can't do both at the same time.

[bdhe]

It is simple to paint certain opinions xenophobic when they are! This is not another instance of culture wars under which the right is so fond of painting themselves as victims.

> If people are concerned about half a million adults educating themselves, than please also be concerned about 100 million people of a country trying to make it through a difficult time. Black and white thinking is all there seems to be these days. Either we close schools and businesses, or we don't. Either we allow the beach, or we don't. But whenever it suits we put on our refined thinking hat and try to think about all the consequences.

Absolutely hogwash! You think the folks outraged by this aren't equally outraged by the nonsensical way in which Congress is acting towards social nets in this country (the 100 million or so struggling while the 1% get even wealthier)? That's why I put out your earlier comment because it reeks of bad faith arguments. You've not put forth one coherent good faith argument in all the discussions we've had.

> If a person supports closing schools, closing businesses and to not have political gatherings, all of which impacts hundreds of millions of people in the US alone, but finds excuses for exemptions, that for me would be a convoluted narrative. You quote an earlier comment of mine. Which is still valid. I made it two weeks ago and look around you. Are we accommodating peoples lives, all of them, or are we not. If you don't want to accommodate a gym instructor, nail salon owner, or working parents with what they need, its hard to get the policies you want, or the country you want. You want to prevent the spread with heavy handed measures, ruining peoples lives, and at the same time walk a fine line for expat students and protesters? You can't do both at the same time.

Wrong once more. I'm employing empathy in both scenarios. Your solution is to view things in a black and white manner. Instead of suggesting that we close businesses and incentivize them to keep things safe for themselves and others, through expanded social safety nets like Europe is doing, so that they may reopen quicker, you paint it as a black and white open or close. Your opinions come from the same place, that of abject selfish thinking devoid of empathy. You want things to be open because the alternative, the 1% of the country taking on their fair load during these difficult times to help support the rest is unfathomable. Then, you look at a scenario that again requires empathy and placing others needs ahead of your own and choose to deploy a "safety from covid" narrative which is an awful convenient fig leaf around xenophobia.

You brought up protestors which suggests to me that you're not coming from a place of having a reasonable argument. You've got your victim narrative, everything else be damned. I pity your inability to get out of the narrow republican talking points and I wish you luck getting to a more empathetic and genuine place of discourse.