[stevedewald]

I'd encourage you to consider NOT nuking a post/comment just because it gets downvotes. We already have too many people afraid to speak for fear of judgement by the mob. You're clearly a thoughtful person, and I believe the silent majority out there would appreciate more diversity of opinions.

[jjoonathan]

A comment that draws mob wrath today is likely to retain that ability into the future. Combine this with the increasing popularity of digging up old comments, taking them out of context, stirring a moral panic, and getting someone fired over them, and it becomes pretty clear that unpopular opinions (and adjacent) in the permanent record represent a serious liability that only increases with time and should not be underestimated.

[airstrike]

> Combine this with the increasing popularity of digging up old comments, taking them out of context, stirring a moral panic, and getting someone fired over them

I hear you loud and clear. Signed up for reddit in 2007 and last week finally decided to run "shreddit" and delete my entire post and comment history from the website. No way I'm letting some comment I made 13 years ago get taken out context and ruin my career or relationships.

[throwaway8941]

There are plenty of reddit message archives out there. I often stumble upon mutilated reddit threads while looking for a solution for some technical problem. The only thing shreddit does is wasting a few more minutes of my time.

Edit: why the downvotes? I am genuinely interested. Shreddit does not protect you from anything, it's only an illusion. I think more people should be aware of that.

[DavidPeiffer]

Even if it's not perfect, it's a significant step towards removing discoverability. The Google crawling will eventually drop the content associated with the username, making it massively more difficult for someone to dig up past history.

A motivated individual could still dig things up, but many people (even most users of reddit) are unfamiliar with the archives out there.

[Sylamore]

The issue is that regardless of Google/Bing caches, there are sites like Pushbullet that archive ALL comments and posts that were made on Reddit, with APIs that savvy people can use to check deleted/edited comments. Awareness of these archives seems to be spreading through Reddit.

[klyrs]

There are quite a few HN mirrors out there, too

https://hacker-news-example.factor.dev/

https://hn.matthewblode.com/

https://nilaykhandelwal.com

https://innerself-hn.com/

I'm not really sure why people would do this, except perhaps some seo shenanigans?

[jonfw]

This seems like an exceptionally rare event- for a person to a) have nothing better to do than stalk your comments, going back 13 years, b) be in enough of a position of power that they could use it against you, and c) be irrational enough to not understand how dumb it is to hold a 13y/o internet comment against you.

My opinion is this- if somebody wants to stalk my Internet personality, so be it. I'm willing to sacrifice those relationships.

I guess the problem would be if I ended up with some leadership/management position and a subordinate saw it?

[goatinaboat]

I guess the problem would be if I ended up with some leadership/management position and a subordinate saw it?

Like this guy fired over an article written 33 years ago?

https://nypost.com/2020/07/03/boeing-communications-boss-nie...

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Reminds me of this story: https://www.wired.com/2007/04/canadian-psycho/

[quanticle]

The person doesn't need to be in a position of power. All someone has to do is tweet something you said a long time ago, out of concept, and then someone else in a position of power finds it. Or it gets signal boosted by other people until it comes to the attention of someone in a position of power.

[jjoonathan]

Like that time a Developer Evangelist overheard two developers exchange dongle jokes and got them fired for it. It doesn't take much.

[thristian]

> This seems like an exceptionally rare event

A global pandemic is also an exceptionally rare event, yet it's wise to be prepared for such things because sometimes they happen.

As for "be in a position of power", there's a lot of websites with enough SEO to show up in the first page of Google results for your name. How much do you care about what potential employers/co-workers/business partners/romantic partners think of you?

For "be irrational enough", just look at any click-bait headline or random sampling of tweets. There's a lot of people in this world who are quite happy to take things at face-value without thinking too hard.

[mellow2020]

> How much do you care about what potential employers/co-workers/business partners/romantic partners think of you?

If someone judges me based on some randonm old comment without even talking to me, I absolutely do not want to work with them or be their friend, ever.

[skinkestek]

> If someone judges me based on some randonm old comment without even talking to me, I absolutely do not want to work with them or be their friend, ever.

This is fine for you and me right now.

It is not fine for persons like one of the guys who was mentioned in the story in "the Atlantic" who had, for the first time in his life landed a good job only to be thrown under the bus at the first opportunity.

I'm fairly certain if a judge haf given him his job back he would have accepted it.

Why? Because I have been in a tight spot myself and while I wasn't fired (I moved to a new city to a job I was promised only to be told on Monday morning that they had reconsidered and wouldn't hire me anyway) I know the feeling of going -in a few hours - from a situation where everything looks nicer than ever before to a situation where I'm begging every nearby company to hire me.

[goatinaboat]

Signed up for reddit in 2007 and last week finally decided to run "shreddit" and delete my entire post and comment history from the website

If only HN offered that option for people who signed up under identities that could be linked to their real identity back in the day when the Internet was sane(r).

It will live on in archive.org indefinitely anyway.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I remember once signing up for Disqus (I think), or some other “combined” commenter SaaS.

After I had entered my info, but before completing the process, it said “We found all these comments out there. Are any of them yours?”

It displayed a list of ancient stuff; a lot of it posted anonymously (I thought).

I was horrified, and immediately binned the signup.

The Internet can be a downright creepy place.

[novok]

Hear hear, there are old usernames that I wish I could delete from HN.

[leni536]

Please, no. It makes sense to remove username from a post. Removing content is horrible.

[goatinaboat]

Sure, but it could revert the username to Anonymous Coward, like other sites do. The acid test will be when someone decides to make it a GDPR issue, then HN will need to pull its finger out and implement this simple function users have been asking about for years.

[bartread]

> A comment that draws mob wrath today is likely to retain that ability into the future.

Maybe sometimes, not always.

I generally try to avoid being too controversial or, if I feel the need to make a potentially controversial point, couch it in thoughtful and reasoned terms (except on the rare occasions where I've drunk posted in which case it all goes out the window and I post something that makes no sense even to me the next day - and, of course, I don't recommend doing this).

You obviously can't see how many downvotes or upvotes a post on HN gets, or when they've come in, but I've certainly had situations where the score changes over time in a way that suggests a "wave" of downvotes followed by a "wave" of upvotes, and occasionally vice versa. I.e, comments that started out popular have become unpopular, and vice versa.

The other pattern I see from time to time is that you get absolutely roasted in the comments, but the silent majority upvote you massively. I remember posting something broadly supportive of Microsoft in some way or other where exactly this happened: I got completely slagged, but also picked up a ton of points.

I think this illustrates that the at least sometimes the mob involved in the mob wrath might be a lot smaller, and sometimes with less credible concerns, than you might think.

This is one of the problems I see with twitter: it's hugely adversarial yet only a small minority of people use it so when you go outside into the real world you realise it doesn't - or perhaps shouldn't - have that much bearing even though it's so prevalently cited in the media.

[jjoonathan]

> if I feel the need to make a potentially controversial point, couch it in thoughtful and reasoned terms

Did that save Stallman?

[orestarod]

Mob works with keywords, not with meanings.

[jjoonathan]

Exactly, that's a good way of putting it.

[Barrin92]

I honestly feel it would be a good idea to remove them. Just let people upvote. There's something disproportionately mean about downvotes. They're not just a lack of upvotes, they're like beating someone up with a stick.

They're almost never used for their actual purpose anyway, which is to rank down uninformative or just dumb posts, they always end up being utilized in heated discussions as a way to stick it to whoever someone is arguing with.

[Reelin]

It seems like having only (up / down) conflates at least two distinct messages that a reader might want to quickly express. The "official" one is dispassionately judging post quality for moderation purposes. The "wrong" one is expressing personal opinion of the content.

Many users clearly want to quickly express their personal opinion in a low effort manner and are more than willing to "misuse" the voting mechanism for that. There was a post on the front page of HN earlier today about railroad crossings and blaming end users for (arguably) systemic failures. It seems like the current incarnation of social media runs afoul of this quite badly in all cases I'm aware of.

(I'm reminded of an SO comment by Tim Post about comments being their version of a public trash can and the reputation requirement for them roughly equating to a municipality welding them shut. The result is pretty much what you would expect.)

[amelius]

Perhaps downvoting should require more effort, like solving a captcha.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I made a post on SO Meta[0], where I shared a bit of wisdom I learned from teachers:

"Encourage the person; discourage the behavior."

Seems to have received lukewarm response, but it may be an oversimplified approach to a complex issue.

"There's always an easy solution to every human problem; Neat, plausible and wrong." –H. L. Mencken

[0] https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/398537/what-can-we-...

[tartoran]

I agree that upvotes only would make for a better dynamic with less mob abuse. And, if someone is mean or makes a dumb contribution, being completely ignored is a good lesson, much better than a shower of downvotes without any reason

[solarkraft]

> being completely ignored is a good lesson, much better than a shower of downvotes

Downvotes directly lead to a post being ignored, because they get greyed out and eventually die. I consider that a great self-moderation feature. How would you replace that?

[tartoran]

Upvoted comments going up the page and ignored ones dropping down so one has to scroll all the way down to see them.

[hnick]

I remember a lot of people, myself included, questioned Facebook's "like" system when it was introduced because it had no corresponding downvote. I think I agree with you now though.

[TheOtherHobbes]

That doesn't work, because posts with zero upvotes get the same screen space and framing as posts with 25k upvotes.

This is an editorial issue, because those upvotes are decorative. They suggest a post has more reach and engagement, and perhaps is more entertaining. But not that it has more objective credibility - which is of course a reflection of Facebook's preference for promoting the former over the latter.

Voting isn't the answer. There may not be a community-sourced answer, because any system you imagine can be gamed by any more or less organised adversary.

The only workable solution is manual moderation with some attention to tone and content, and the banning of those who consistently troll.

[EtrianWizard]

Possible alternative: downvotes that don't affect placement, and just have an additional downvote counter.

[TheOtherHobbes]

I've sometimes wondered about a lifetime upvote/downvote counter as an alternative to upvote karma.

This would work in a secure community, but it will stop working as soon as astroturfing PR firms and state troll farms move in, because on most sites it's trivially easy to create downvotes bots to attack specific names.

[caymanjim]

There's also something to be said for owning your disliked comments, for better or worse.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I don't like to "just leave them out there." If I can figure out why they are disliked, I may be able to fix them.

Here's an example: A couple of days ago, Antirez made this excellent post[0].

I could completely relate. I have been through the same kind of thing. I have created a project for free that is becoming a worldwide standard, but is tiny, and rather pathetic, compared to redis.

But I could still relate to what he wrote, and I made a post, saying that. I pointed to my own little project.

It immediately started getting downvoted. They were coming fast and furious, so I deleted it.

On reflection, I see that it was perceived as being "small-time loser compares himself to tech god."

I didn't mean it that way, but I'm a bit "on the spectrum," and aren't always too aware of how I come across.

I considered it a lost cause. I nuked it, and wrote a quick "thanks!" post, like everyone else.

The fox just wasn't worth the chase.

[0] http://antirez.com/news/133

[yesenadam]

Isn't that a little pathetic to write a comment then keep staring at the voting on it?! And then delete it if it gets negative? Be a man, like Eleanor Roosevelt. Write the best comment you can and walk away. Life's too short to obsess over HN voting like that.

> They were coming fast and furious

All 4 of them? You know can only possibly lose 4 points, right?

Also, I noticed that on some topics I know more about than most, the best comments on the page are initially downvoted, then return to the black fairly soon.[0] You may just be penalizing yourself with the panicky deletions. And I'd much rather your comments stay here, if you meant what you said, and what you said and how you said it seemed good to you. Well, maybe you are a real bastard and frequently write horrible comments that should be deleted, but I doubt it. :-)

[0] Maybe/probably this happens with every topic, just I can only see it on topics I know best, where I can clearly see which are the good comments and which are plain wrong/ignorant.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

I appreciate your point of view, but we do see things differently.

For example, I have learned that there's very often many different aspects to others, beyond my shallow "first reaction." Although social media (and media, in general) encourages us to think of others as 1-dimensional "avatars," it has been my experience that every person is a marvelously complex being, with many different facets.

Sometimes, it's best for me to just keep my mouth/keyboard shut. Retroactive deletion is not the ideal approach, but I believe that it is better than leaving clearly unsuitable material out there, and I suffer from an overwhelming urge to participate in society, despite my challenges.

It might be a good exercise to consider the possibility that I could also have interests in life beyond HN. In fact, I often delete stuff, because it just isn't really important to me that I be heard. I don't live and die by the opinions of others, but it's important to be a member of society, and that means interacting with others in a respectful manner. If what I write does nothing but cause trouble, and I don't really care whether or not anyone likes it, then maybe the world would be a better place without my "wisdom."

I see that you also have many interests beyond the technical, so I have to assume that there was some point that you wanted to make, other than what appears to be a rather flaccid insult.

I must tender an apology. I don't think I have the capacity to understand your point.

[yesenadam]

> It might be a good exercise to consider the possibility that I could also have interests in life beyond HN.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there or why. Just sounds condescending. That you do? We all do, I guess.

> I have to assume that there was some point that you wanted to make, other than what appears to be a rather flaccid insult.

That feels a bit rude, you could have just asked what my point is. I was offering what I hoped helpful advice. Wasn't meant to be insulting at all, sorry. (I assume you meant "a little pathetic"? My comment was meant in a "you can do better than that!" way, trying to lift up, not put down. "Be a man, like Eleanor Roosevelt" is I think a Simpsons quote, I should have put it in " "s)

I didn't write the comment when I first read yours, thinking it wasn't necessary to reply, but an hour later I thought of it again, so came back here to comment. It was apparently something I really wanted to say, which is one good test of whether to comment, I guess.

[jiveturkey]

> If I can figure out why they are disliked, I may be able to fix them.

fix? why would you want to become part of the echo chamber? i do understand the desire to not receive a downvote. Your specific example was indeed perhaps out of place and the downvotes were maybe "correct" and thus you were right to reflect and delete the post.

but more often than not, with contentious topics like donald trump downvotes are merely "i disagree". the pushback you're getting here is about that kind of downvote, and I agree. there's nothing to "fix". HN tries to make sure such topics don't even make it here for discussion, but the filter is steep so plenty get through.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

If you don't understand, I can't explain, but I have spent my entire life, trying to measure the reactions of others to my words and actions.

[throw1234651234]

Agreed. Dislikes also let you discover funny trends among the people here. For example, if you say meditation doesn't work, that's one. Even though there is evidence that it doesn't, and if you read something like "Altered Traits" by leading meditation research, they essentially admit as much.

There are a couple other trigger topics, but I can't remember at this time. Oh, one is asking about salary, but I guess that's sort of understandable.

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Thanks. I do value this community, and try to be a good citizen.

Like I said, I am trying to make amends. One of the symptoms of that, is that I can come across as "stuffy."

Also, I do want to put out a good image of myself, but that can come across as "self-promotion," something I'm downright awful at. I'm also pretty much terrible at relating (tends to come across as "making it all about me"), so it tends to fall flat, when I try.

[carapace]

There are several places where comments here are archived in near-real-time. Deleting a comment here is a signal, not an actual "no one can ever see it again" deletion.

[ghostpepper]

Maybe it's confirmation bias but it seems that it's getting more and more common to see upvoted posts with the top reply something along the lines of "I don't know this was downvoted ..." followed by a restatement of the OP's comment in a slightly different wording.

[pjc50]

Wording matters, a lot. I've even posted a few "I don't know why you're downvoting this when it's correct, and here's why" comments myself.