[cosmodisk]

I'm not sure why that's the case.I'm having hard time imagining that most buyers really use it as a truck: transport tools, equipment,and so on. They probably don't look so bad on American roads,as they are much wider, however every time I see one in Europe, it's almost 100% that some brash jackass is behind the wheel. Even those who buy them for work tend to follow the rule.

[Someone1234]

Pick up trucks have evolved, a lot.

Many have a comparable cabin to SUVs for two rows. So essentially if you buy the "Crew Cab"-style you're buying an SUV but instead of a traditional indoor trunk, you have a much more flexible outdoor one.

I'm not saying everyone needs a pickup truck, but what I am saying is that it makes just as much or as little sense as a similarly priced/sized SUV, and maybe more in certain circumstances. Even for non-pros (assuming a smaller/cheaper pickup, like the F150).

I've lived in both places, and in Europe the default assumption is that you'll have no way to transport stuff (e.g. Ikea furniture, large TVs, DIY supplies, etc) so everyone offers inexpensive delivery. In the US, a lot of places won't deliver or it will be expensive so either owning or having a family member own a pickup is very valuable.

It is one of those things you cannot know until you live in the US.

[cosmodisk]

>I've lived in both places, and in Europe the default assumption is that you'll have no way to transport stuff (e.g. Ikea furniture, large TVs, DIY supplies, etc) so everyone offers inexpensive delivery. In the US, a lot of places won't deliver or it will be expensive so either owning or having a family member own a pickup is very valuable.

This is a very valid point.In Europe the default expectation for anything that weights more than 10kg is that someone will deliver ro your door and most often put it where it need to be( furniture, washing machine). That's why I don't know a single person who has a house and needs a pickup truck. In the worst case scenario, people simply hire a trailer,which solves 99% of transportation issues. Also in Europe,most things are close to you and a thought of driving two hours for some shopping is almost surreal.

[jschwartzi]

Most of the passenger minivans sold in the US have removable seats so they make a great alternative to a truck as long as you don't need much ground clearance. Honestly if I could get two more inches of ground clearance in a Toyota Sienna that would be my next vehicle. It's rare that I would want to carry both 6 people and a half rack of plywood at the same time. But if I want to drive to a trailhead and go hiking or something I'd like to bring some friends.

[Someone1234]

Agreed.

There's also those fold into floor seats in some minivans, and you can buy a correctly sized mattress online to turn them into a sleeper. They're definitely very comparable to cargo vans in Europe, and I've seen small businesses use them as delivery vehicles with no modifications.

[DrPhish]

I'd add excessively dirty loads to the ground clearance issue with minivans.

For example: I would not _ever_ haul chicken manure in my Toyota Sienna (even if I'd haul some muddy mountain bikes post-ride)

[brightball]

I had a loaner pickup for a while when my car was in the shop for a month (different story) but it definitely had some value. I found myself able to conveniently do a lot of things that I’d have needed a trailer for otherwise specifically because I wouldn’t want to get the inside of an SUV dirty.

But I wouldn’t want one as my daily driver.

[Someone1234]

I wouldn't normally, but a hybrid? Perhaps...

The biggest downside to a truck is frankly meh fuel economy. The F150 for example is currently 21 city / 28 highway, which in 2020 is not competitive (e.g. Subaru Outback/Nissan Rogue get 26/33, and Toyota RAV4 26/35).

Creature comforts are comparable to SUVs, the driving/handling is "fine," and while the prices start out higher because they sell more there're more deals to be found too.

I could see myself driving a hybrid Crew Cab-style truck.

[brightball]

A long time ago Ford was working on a hydraulic hybrid. Supposedly would get better city mpg than highway but I don’t know whatever came of it.

[alkonaut]

> the default assumption is that you'll have no way to transport stuff (e.g. Ikea furniture, large TVs, DIY supplies, etc) so everyone offers inexpensive delivery.

But cars have tow hooks, and IKEA and the hardware store lends you a trailer for free. Or you can rent one for $20 for a few hours. Where in Europe do people not want to use trailers? I (Sweden) wouldn't buy a car without a tow hook, because they are hard to resell.

This is what I don't get about pickups: all the time that I'm not hauling stuff I'm still hauling around that big space.

Granted, towing a trailer to get a sofa from IKEA isn't the best experience either, but it seems to be pretty good compromise for aerodynamics/cost/weight.

[Someone1234]

> This is what I don't get about pickups: all the time that I'm not hauling stuff I'm still hauling around that big space.

By that logic you'd buy a vehicle with no trunk, since you're hauling around that "big empty space." Or a vehicle with only a single seat for when you have none or fewer than capacity passengers.

You're just arbitrarily distinguishing an outdoor trunk space from an indoor one, and claiming one is wasteful without actual justification. If anything an outdoor trunk has less vehicle side panels, glass, mechanics, and weight therefore less drag: Making it more fuel efficient for its relative size.

The complaint reads like: "It is different to here, therefore I assume it is wrong."

As I said I've lived in both for tens of years, what is popular in the US makes sense for the US, and what is popular for Europe makes sense there too. Without considering the big pictures (e.g. size of roads, size of homes/apartments, parking, quality of public transport, etc) it is difficult to grasp.

[alkonaut]

> By that logic you'd buy a vehicle with no trunk, since you're hauling around that "big empty space." Or a vehicle with only a single seat for when you have none or fewer than capacity passengers.

It's a compromise for all vehicles obviously. Ideally you'd want one that didn't have those empty seats - but that's not practical. If you want to minimize weight/drag/cost/fuel consumption while at the same time hauling x cubic feet and 5 people, then that is an optimization problem. I don't know what the optimal solution is, but I doubt it looks anything like the traditional pickup (A cybertruck possibly comes closer). The optimization problem becomes differeent if you add more constraints, for example ability to tow X thousand pounds.

> an outdoor trunk space from an indoor one, and claiming one is wasteful without actual justification. If anything an outdoor trunk has less vehicle side panels, glass, mechanics, and weight therefore less drag:

Drag is a shape coefficient, not a weight coefficient. Most modern cars, even SUV's, have drag coefficients in the low .30's. Most pickup trucks don't come close, even in marketing values (One of the lowest claimed values is the Ram 1500 with .36, and the Cybertruck will be lower). An F-150 is north of .50 in testing [1]

[1] https://thenextweb.com/plugged/2019/12/02/heres-how-the-cybe...

[beervirus]

Gas is cheap, and trucks are useful. I don't often need to move a bunch of lumber or whatever, but when I do, it's nice not to have to go rent a truck from Home Depot.

And when I'm not doing that, it's basically a spacious luxury vehicle on the inside. What's not to like?

[scrose]

> What’s not to like?

The deaths and injuries caused from allowing any average person to drive a vehicle with a 6’ high hood with massive blind spots on crowded public roads.

[beervirus]

My hood is nowhere near 6 feet, and my blind spots are no worse than a regular car. Are you picturing me in an 18-wheeler?

[scrose]

No, I don't know the exact dimensions of your truck and I am not picturing you in an 18-wheeler. It's well known that the F150, as well as many other SUVs and light trucks have massive blind spots that prevent kids, disabled people, and just generally anyone shorter than 5' from being seen and ultimately have been responsible for many unnecessary deaths and injuries in the US.

Here's a video demonstrating frontal blind zones for several cars/trucks: https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/14/21065319/suv-truck-front-...

[beervirus]

Oh, I see what you're talking about. "Blind spot" usually refers to something on the sides of the vehicle that isn't visible in the side view mirror. You're talking about something in the front/back.

[kasool]

[citation needed]

[scrose]

You’re asking for a citation on the impact SUVs and trucks have on injuring and killing people in the US? A few simple google searches on ‘traffic crashes USA’, ‘SUV blind spots’, ‘pickup truck blind spots’, etc... will take you 5 seconds and give you all the information you need.

[taurath]

The average house parcel size is .2 acres or 768 square meters. For those living in rural areas 1-2 acres is extremely commonplace. For home improvements on such a large lot it tends to make sense for a lot of people to own a truck.

Also if you want to haul toys like jetskis, boats, quads, motorcycles, campers, you need a truck. Tons of rural americans have those.

[agloeregrets]

That’s all kinda the story. Many don’t fully use them but they like the idea that they can. However, and this is important, one common misconception about America is that it’s all like NYC or suburbs. The country is positively huge and generally very sparsely populated in the middle. Many people own trucks because they have a farm or an ATV or do their own yard-work or construction or the like. Plus historically, pickups used to be the only AWD vehicles in the past and much of America involves harsh winters or off-road driving. But yeah, the other half of the market just buys them because they like them.

[michaelt]

> I'm not sure why that's the case.

Countries often implement backdoor protectionism through things like vehicle emissions regulations.

In America, the American auto makers weren't competing effectively for anything smaller than an SUV - and when CAFE standards were set, requirements for SUVs and trucks were made much laxer.

And the auto companies' marketing responded rationally: If you're paying for the hero in a movie to drive one of your vehicles, better make it the SUV or truck if possible.

Europe, meanwhile, had auto makers who were disproportionately successful at making diesel cars - and promptly set emissions standards that were barely possible to achieve unless you knew that everyone else was cheating and you needed to cheat too. And decided tax gas and diesel by volume, when diesel happens to have 20% more energy per unit volume and higher emissions.