[pnako]

In France, about 20 years ago there was a lively debate about whether north-African girls, in high school and universities, should be allowed to wear a "foulard islamique" (scarf over the hair).

Now we are completely past that, and we have women wearing burkas and niqabs; things covering the entire body. This also increasingly includes indigenous French women. So not only some groups don't assimilate, they actually proselytize and convert others.

It used to be politically incorrect to say it but nowadays the entire political class, including the left, is forced to recognize that it's an issue.

It's especially a tremendous issue in France because it used to promote assimilation: the idea that anyone, racially, could become French as long as they completely abandoned their culture of origin (i.e. the opposite of multiculturalism). In practice it mostly worked with other Europeans like Spaniards, Italians, etc. Now we have an issue since we have de-facto (and non-working) multiculturalism in a country that still officially promotes assimilation.

So yes it's definitely a problem, and as far as I can see it's been a problem everywhere, and throughout history. The idea that people with radically different cultures can live in the same place is not confirmed anywhere. In fact we can see that even people of the same racial background, with slightly different cultures, cannot really live together (a good example of that is Belgium, where Wallons and Flamands can't find political agreement).

[Broken_Hippo]

I don't really understand why a headscarf is controversial at all. I don't understand why burkas and niqabs are controversial either, so long as folks know they have a choice in the matter. Someone else wearing one doesn't really affect you. The bigger issue is that you see it as a problem, instead of just accepting folks.

Seriously: How does someone else wearing a headscarf - or more - actually affect you beyond the hypothetical of what a person could do?

[pnako]

The scarf is an issue in the sense that it was a way for militant, political Islam groups to test the waters. Which has led in less than a generation to much more extreme ways to openly show support for radical Islam (including burkas or more commonly niqabs).

It's an issue because a nation, a society must have a common bond, a common culture. It's not a giant supermarket or a hotel.

[dang]

Religious flamewar is not allowed on HN, so please don't do it here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[pnako]

Point taken, although I don't think I was engaging in that.

I did not make comments about Islam specifically, and whether it is "good" or "bad" in the absolute sense. I could have made the same argument by pointing out that protestant and catholic Christians have had trouble living together in Europe. My point is more generally that cultures that are too different can't live together in the same place; Islam in France was just a contemporary example I'm familiar with.

[Broken_Hippo]

lol. Where do you get your information from? A headscarf and the next thing you know, "radical Islam"?? Whatever. This is just xenophobia with a polite package. Many muslims wear a headscarf around the world. Other religions do to: It was, until fairly recently, common in Europe as well for many folks (not sure if it was ever common in the Americas). This isn't showing support for "radical islam" any more than being Christian is supporting radical christianity or being any religion shows support for the most radical versions of it. Most muslims simply follow Islam, and not a radical form of it. Radical is.. rare. In pretty much all things.

And no, it isn't an issue because it is a nation. There are lots of ways to have a common bond or culture. It is an issue because segments of the population have decided to be xenophobic and shun parts of this particular religion. You can have things like belief that everyone is equal as a common bond. Language is a common bond. Education can be (and is!) a common bond. Compassion can be a common bond. But this is the hill you are dying on instead.

[pnako]

I think your view of the world is very naive. You can't inject political Islam in the French secular-with-deep-Christian-roots culture for the same reason you can't inject San Francisco LGBT culture in Baghdad.

Peoples and nations have histories, cultures, roots. You can't just copy/paste people around and expect everyone to be happy. The world has never worked this way.