[clothesline]

I hope this nonsense can stop and talent can be rewarded regardless of caste.

> This was all very hush-hush, I know of it because I overheard them talking about it.

Of course it is. In India, there are some ridiculuous rules related to caste discrimination. For example someone from "lower" caste can sue a person for libel and have him thrown in jail with no FIR. Caste based discrimination is wrong. But arrest-before-FIR is worse and can destroy someone's life.

[42_]

Do you know why such a law came into existence? Because of atrocities against "lower" castes which wouldn't even be investigated. But most laws in India end up being misused. (For example dowry harassment laws.)

[_tw9j]

None of this actually fixes anything. The core problem is poverty and lack of good education. If affirmative action was based on poverty instead of caste and wasn't in terms of hiring/reducing marks but giving out resources to those who lack it, it might have save more lives because currently more rich or upper middle class families benefit from the affirmative action.

10% of country owns approximately 80% of the wealth.

Majority is poor. You don't need to look at the caste.

Anti discrimination laws are important but if we keep focusing on caste, nothing will change if you don't tackle the core problems that is extreme inequality.

I firmly believe the mentality of digging graves for each other is a mindset of poverty and that is what happens in most of India. Scammers exist because scams pay more than real jobs. Stereotypes are formed because some of that disproportionately affect poor communities or specific group. It's a vicious cycle. Poverty makes everyone angry and find reasons to seem better than others. Caste is one of them sometimes when you can't find others.

[Ar-Curunir]

This is nonsense. As is demonstrated in this thread, even people with similar educational and professional backgrounds are discriminated against on the basis of caste. Since historically the managerial class is dominated by upper castes, the ones being discriminated against are naturally lower castes.

Yes, the reservation system is imperfect and is abused. That doesn’t mean that we replace it with a system that is caste-blind. Rather, incorporate income into it, so that the lower-caste poor ppl get help

[shripadk]

No this is looking at the problem superficially. The upper castes feel neglected because there are close to 50% reservation in Government jobs. So they have no choice but to go to private sector. Now they practice undeclared reservation in private sector and not give jobs to the lower castes even if they are equally good and if not better. This is a systemic problem. Each one feels slighted. The lower castes have reservation in Government jobs so upper castes create undeclared reservation in private jobs. Both are harmful to the society!

Even the architect of the Caste-based reservation system Dr. Ambedkar (who is also the architect of the Indian Constitution) said that the Reservation in its current form should only exist for 10 years and not be extended. He contended that 10 years is more than sufficient to have a caste-based reservation. But it kept continuing for 70+ years. It is high time we revamp it to only provide reservation for those who are from low income categories. Doesn't matter which caste they are from. That will actually be helpful.

Caste-based reservation only enforces caste system in India. It doesn't help get rid of it! And it also goes against one of the six Fundamental Rights of Indian Constitution: The Right to Equality. Caste-based reservation violates this Fundamental Right. It was a temporary stop-gap measure which we have made permanent not to upset a section of the Indian society. But it is causing more harm than good. That is a fact!

[Ar-Curunir]

The upper castes are in a minority of the country. It’s not like they’re inherently better at their jobs, they just have better access to important resources like social capital, economic capital, and education.

[Jayakumark]

I know friends who are from not from upper class and super rich/educated and wealthier but still enjoy the benefits of caste based quota system, while there are people from upper caste and poor and never able to come up through the system. As long as Reservations and Quotas are present - this will prevail. It should be merit based and not caste based.

[walt0]

No other country has such laws. It's against even the basic magna carta principles.

I know about "victims" who lie about the accusitions in these cases, the local community knows that its a lie but people are still guilty until proven innocent.

I disagree with this, even though I faced such discrimination.

P.S That does not mean discrimination does not take place or that there are no genuine complaints.

[sa1]

> Because of atrocities against "lower" castes which wouldn't even be investigated

> I know about "victims" who lie about the accusitions in these cases, the local community knows that its a lie but people are still guilty until proven innocent.

Both of you are offering anecdotes, and I assume the former far outnumbers the latter, but we would find more anecdotes of the latter on HN, because most Indians here are not low-caste.

P.S That does not mean that discrimination does always take place or that there are no false cases.

[walt0]

Unfortunately for you I can back up my "anecdotes" https://asiatimes.com/2018/03/indias-supreme-court-accused-h...

>The court also referred to data released by the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment showing that of the 15,638 cases decided by the courts in 2015, 11,024 resulted in acquittals or discharges. Another 495 cases were withdrawn and only 4,119 cases resulted in convictions.

[bluGill]

Unfortunately that doesn't have to mean anything. If the courts are biased it is possible they are only convicting if the evidence is so strong they dare not. Or maybe some courts are honestly decided and others are corrupt...

I'm not in India so I have no idea what the truth is. I do know corruption is a problem there and corruption is a hard problem to solve.

[dredmorbius]

There are in fact preumption-of-validity ("prima facie" evidentiary) laws outside of India. In the case I'm considering these don't directly apply to civil or criminal law, though they operate closely adjacent to these.

[shripadk]

We have "prima facie evidentiary" laws in India too. The law the parent is talking about has nothing to do with it. FIR is registered irrespective of whether there is a case made out prima facie or not. That is the biggest problem with this law. It turns the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" over its head.

[dredmorbius]

"Civil forfeiture".

[shripadk]

But that is for property. Does not extend to a human being. That is the same everywhere. You are confusing the two things. Even in India authorities have legal rights to confiscate property they feel is being used in criminal activity. That is allowed and doesn't require a warrant. But do you, in the United States, have any law where you can be arrested without there being a charge-sheet or an arrest warrant or prima-facie evidence? Even the arrests that cops make in the US are based on prima-facie evidence: not providing information as asked for by law, hiding drugs or on the basis of suspicion. No where does anyone get arrested because someone else just complained about the said person.

[0-O-0]

Could you explain the situation with dowry harassment laws?

[ralphc]

American with a question here. In the U.S. you can legally change your name. What would happen if a Dalit went to court and petitioned to get his named changed to Gupta or Sharma?

[devdas]

They don't need to go to court.

https://legaldesk.com/name-change/procedure-for-name-change-...

The problem is that you need an entire stack of documentation for different sets of paperwork, and that comes with your old name. The only way to get a change done safely in ways that will not show a name change is by getting the name right at birth.

[ralphc]

Would the entire stack be checked for a job in the private sector?

[devdas]

Depends on the job. The good jobs involve background checks, and the entire stack may be checked.

[naruvimama]

The weaker sections usually need the social support provided by their caste. They are therefore more likely to want to keep it.

It is easy to cosmetically change your caste, in schools if you are not "lower" caste you do not mention anything and you fall into "general category".

On the other hand you need to prove that you are "lower caste". As government benefits follow.