[trabant00]

I want to make a case against having a "growth mindset". And against fighting procrastination. And any other self improvement stuff.

- all these things happen at a much lower level than conscious thought. We have approaches to achieving based on genetics, early upbringing, life experiences, etc. No amount of wanting things to be different will make it so.

- there are no recipes. There is just doing stuff, some will succeed, some will fail depending on a huge number of factors. No words from anybody will help in your particular situation for general questions like "how do I get better".

- not wanting to do something (regardless of the perceived value of that something) is not always bad. Resources like time and energy are finite. Failure is costly and things like accelerated aging and burnout are real.

- why would you necessarily do what somebody else says you should? Who benefits? For an HN related thing in particular: who benefits from everybody getting into programming and working after work to learn one more tech tool?

- "self improvement" in general seems to me to be pushed by life coaches and the like with zero evidence that it actually does anything. I perceive it as a snake oil product.

The topic is huge and any attempt to summarize it like this is bound to fail. These are just a couple of thoughts.

Also, maybe the best condensation is Allan Watts "The reason why you want to be better is the reason why you aren't."

Edit: google the Allan Watts quote, it's a few minutes speech - you can listen or find it transcribed. Worth listening for another perspective on getting better.

[Strom]

Yes a lot of behavior happens due to lower level thinking than consciousness, but that doesn't mean it can't be influenced.

Yes failure has a cost, but it's also a great way to learn. If you're not going to do anything because you fear failure, then will you truly be happier at the end of your long life thinking gee I sure am happy I didn't attempt anything.

Yes there are a lot of ulterior motive teachers out there, but there are also altruistic ones.

There's plenty of repeatable evidence that self improvement does work. I go running regularly, and I can run longer each time. You can try playing chess against a random person off the street and then against someone who has been going to a chess club for a decade. Working on improving yourself does work.

You are right that the topic is huge. However the way to climb a mountain is to take a step, not to say that it can't be done.

[trabant00]

I am bound to run into hundreds of disclaimers on my post. Ofc this is not an argument for not doing anything. OP mentions he is doing new things but sometimes he doesn't. And I just wanted to say that sometimes is perfectly ok not to.

[monsieurbanana]

Hacker News encourage people to use the principle of charity: criticize the best interpretation of an argument.

They failed to do so with yours. It's easy to interpret what anyone says as if they mean it in an absolute way, it's 100% not helpful.

On another hand, sometimes I unconsciously do it too, it's something you need to practice (self-improvement? heh)

[jasode]

>I want to make a case against [...] And against fighting procrastination.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote but I disagree about not fighting procrastination and thus letting it happen because of subconscious thought.

Procrastination leads to a lot of destructive outcomes and unhappiness. E.g. I kept procrastinating the cancellation of my gym club membership that I never used because stopping in person to sign the cancellation papers was a hassle. That procrastination cost me over $1000 of extra monthly fees for zero benefit. Staying with the example of fitness, I used to procrastinate the treadmill run in the afternoon because I've never liked exercise. I solved that procrastination by just doing it first thing in the morning before breakfast. I still have many areas in life I procrastinate but I keep trying to find "mental hacks" to reduce the damage it causes.

I'll add nuance by attempting to categorize 2 types of procrastination: (1) tasks that others think are important vs (2) tasks you really want to do

An example of (1) might be today's HN story on the front page suggesting you read Milton's "Paradise Lost". Ok, you then add it to your "mental todo" pile but as a result, you keep procrastinating your "education of classic literature". Well, maybe instead of letting that form of procrastination gnaw at you, it's better to be honest with yourself and just say you're not interested in reading it. A better use of time is to focus on the things you really want to do.

>And any other self improvement stuff.

To clarify, are you against the products/services/coaching being sold for self improvement -- or are you against the idea itself of self improvement?

[duncanawoods]

The Allan Watts passage:

> "I know all kinds of people who've got this 'higher self' going, practicing their yoga - but they're just like ordinary people, sometimes a little worse. And they can fool themselves. They can say for example, 'Well, my point of view in religion is very liberal. I believe that all religions have divine revelation in them, but I don't understand the way you people fight about it. You fight and say that we Jehovah's Witnesses have the real religion, others say we Roman Catholics have it. And the Muslims say, no, it is in the Quran, and this is the right way.' And somebody else gets up, and he may be a rather highbrow Catholic who says, 'Well, God has given the spirit to all the traditions, but, ours is the most refined and mature.' And then somebody comes along and says, 'Well they're all equally revelations of the divine - and in seeing this, of course, I'm much more tolerant than you are.' Do you see how that game is going to work? Or, I could take this position - supposing you regard me as some sort of a guru. And you know how gurus hate each other. They're always putting each other down. And I could say, 'Well, I don't put other gurus down.' See, that outwits all of them! We're always doing that. We're always finding a way to be one-up, and by the most incredibly subtle means. So you see that, you see. And you say, 'I realize I'm always doing that. Tell me, how do I not do that?' I say, 'Why do you want to know?' You say, 'Well, I'd be better that way!' 'Yeah, but why do you want to be better?' You see - the reason why you want to be better is the reason why you aren't. Shall I put it like that? We aren't better because we want to be."

---

Alan Watts is always entertaining. I think this has quite narrow applicability towards self-contradictory pursuits of virtue i.e. the motivation for self-perfection or trying to become more moral is likely to be riven with status anxiety not moral intention.

I don't think it applies to skill acquisition whose motivation may or may not be virtuous but it isn't self-contradictory. Overcoming procrastination is in part a skill to use tools like pre-commitments, habit entrainment, implementation intentions, reward and relaxation management as well as deeper tasks like resolving the sources of anxiety and it's triggers that cause avoidance.

[codethief]

Thanks for posting the full context, it is indeed entertaining!

[riyadparvez]

> all these things happen at a much lower level than conscious thought. We have approaches to achieving based on genetics, early upbringing, life experiences, etc. No amount of wanting things to be different will make it so.

You hit the nail on the head. The worst outcome of these types of research is implicit victim blaming. People growing up in marginalized communities never get the opportunities to be successful in life. There are a lot of reasons why someone is not accomplished and not having the "right" thought is pretty down on the list. Instead of very carefully describing the limitations of these techniques, they do complete opposites. They hype up and overgeneralize to have publicity and sell more books and seminars.

[burntoutfire]

> Failure is costly and things like accelerated aging and burnout are real.

I can attest to the flipside of this argument - I am 39, for whatever reason have never overstressed or overexerted (took a relatively easy career, don't have a family etc.) and I, even with much less than perfect lifestyle habits, probably look 10 years younger than many people my age. I wonder how much of it is just genetics (plus not liking to be out in the sun) and how much is the life choices.

[kiba]

- not wanting to do something (regardless of the perceived value of that something) is not always bad. Resources like time and energy are finite. Failure is costly and things like accelerated aging and burnout are real.

It's a certainly a signal, but it's not end-all be all signal that tells you something accurate all the time.

I want to make a case against having a "growth mindset". And against fighting procrastination. And any other self improvement stuff.

Because it is self-sabotaging behaviors. So much stuff is built around doing things that you don't want to do but is good for you, or even you feel happy about after you finished.

Exercise, for example. I know that I fallen off the wagon. The trick is to get back up again and keep trying different approaches. Even the same approaches.

- why would you necessarily do what somebody else says you should? Who benefits? For an HN related thing in particular: who benefits from everybody getting into programming and working after work to learn one more tech tool?

Programming is cool. Learning yet another tech tool is pointless without fundamentals.

- "self improvement" in general seems to me to be pushed by life coaches and the like with zero evidence that it actually does anything. I perceive it as a snake oil product.

People want to self improve. That isn't a bad thing. Of course, we want evidence of what works, but you can't have that without the prerequisite investment in the science, and sometime we have to do things by feel and experience rather than rigorous systematic testing.

[BelleOfTheBall]

I'm actually a huge supporter of self-improvement as a whole and growth mindsets but I think it can be quite dangerous indeed. Many people use them as a way to avoid facing problems they have or distracting themselves from issues that they can't solve through any amount of learning or working.

It's important to realize that achieving success in your career, learning five languages or building a cool invention aren't free tickets to happiness or fulfillment. At most, they'll make you content for a while and then, like with any happiness source, the joy will diminish and you'll have to do it all again except now you have to try harder as you've already "peaked".

The benefits of self-improvement shouldn't be "self-contained". You're not learning new things just to know them, you should learn them to help people, to make your conversations more interesting, to better understand the things you love. Basically, you should base all your improvement in genuine curiosity and, much as I hate the term, a lust for life. It can't come from feeling unfulfilled.

[surajs]

> issues that they can't solve through any amount of learning or working.

so, what do you recommend?

[BelleOfTheBall]

Therapy and looking inward, through whichever method one prefers. I'm talking about feeling unfulfilled, feeling lost, etc. These aren't things most people can solve with work.

[Arbalest]

I don't quite agree, as change does sometime come. I also don't really get your condensation, is there any further context to that quote?

What I do agree with is that it is a complex issue and so agree that self improvement as a product does not deliver.

[trabant00]

> I also don't really get your condensation, is there any further context to that quote?

Sorry, I wasn't clear, it's a long speech, google it. Well worth listening. Will edit my post.

[cjfd]

Kind of agree and also kind of disagree. For some things there actually are recipes. For instance, I greatly benefited from learning GTD (getting things done) at some point. Not having any sort of overview of all the things going on in my life was causing me quite a bit of distress.

Furthermore, I think it is good to have experienced multiple mindsets so one is not married to any single one of them. The self-improvement mindset can be one of the mindsets that one has experienced.

[lowiqengineer]

What do I do if I'm not successful then? I've dealt with suicidal ideation before, but everyone then just told me that it was a problem of mindset.

If I'm not capable of becoming successful then...what's the point?

[juhatl]

To reiterate what others here already said, success really isn't anything "universally great" to aim for. There's probably no real way to do that either, since there isn't even any universal definition of what success really means. This is especially true when everyone comes up with their own unique set of requirements for considering themselves successful. It is also way too easy to fall for the trap of moving the goalpost once you're there.

And if you felt like you hadn't reached your own definition of success, then what of it? Would that really, honestly change your life in any measurable way, or is the feeling of "not being enough" all in your head? If it is, then that also means your head holds the means to get rid of such a feeling.

I really want to recommend the book "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl. It was one of the greatest assets for me overcoming my own depression, and I hope it can help you battle your suicidal thoughts all the same.

[rdgthree]

Personally, I agree with you - my will to live is certainly predicated on theoretically being able to be directly responsible for significant accomplishment. The attitude that everything is set in stone and you can't change anything about your circumstances has always seemed a bit silly to me.

What the parent comment said is probably true for the majority of cases - most people will succeed or fail due to external factors outside of their control. But you'd have to perform some impressive mental gymnastics to assert that Elon Musk just keeps getting lucky because of his environment, and not because of his own actions.

That being said, I think at some point you have to decide who you want to be. Elon Musk is an insane outlier in every way, and his life is the extreme opposite of stability and peace. I don't think that reality is unrelated to his success. So the parent has a point - accomplishment/self-improvement/growth aren't going to make everyone happy. Some people prefer stability over learning new things.

It doesn't make sense for me, but I can understand why some people want to live their life that way.

[burntoutfire]

To turn your argument on its head - why being successful would make a life worth living? "Being successful" is only a small factor our overall living experience. Plenty of successful people kill themselves, plenty of unsucessful people have great lives.

[trabant00]

"what's the point?" Good question. Nobody knows. Certainly not being "successful", whatever that may mean: you can easily see different cultures and different time periods having even opposing definitions.

The people telling you to just change your mindset are just as broken as you are, I can guarantee you this. They just lie to themselves and/or others and try to force feed you their belief system. Empty words, ignore.

Do listen to that Allan Watts speech, he can certainly present things better than we here can.

[Scarblac]

Becoming successful can't be the point, you won't reach it: there are always new goals on top of what youve already achieved.

The point is to take some steps towards the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow now and then, and enjoying the walk.

So sometimes, act a bit more curious than you feel. Remind yourself that what you're doing is actually fun more often (or if you can't, switch to something that is). And then who knows.

[Michaelfonzolo]

I used to think exactly the same way.

There's plenty of point in merely enjoying the moment. There is little one can do or say to combat the inherent meaninglessness of being, as every argument can be thwarted by a simple "we're all going to die anyways so what's the point?" I don't think there can even logically be a point to life.

That's not to say that goals such as bettering society, bettering one's self, or enjoying the moment aren't worthwhile. Nor does it imply that we should sink into abject hedonism and shoot heroin all day. It merely means that none of these things should be expected to subvert meaninglessness. In this sense, it's actually quite liberating. You can do anything you please, without the burden of wondering whether or not it will fill the perceived void in your soul. That void is an illusion, one which is unfortunately brought about often by depression, BPD, GAD, etc.

After lots of therapy I learned I had internalized a negative voice from an abusive relationship early in my development, which fucked up my sense of self-worth and my perception of life. It made me incessantly focused on "being the best", and if I couldn't achieve anything "great" then I had no choice but to hate myself.

If you're having suicidal thoughts, then it's time to seek professional help. I was at that point too. My doctor and I decided our best bet was to try 10mg of Lexapro for a couple months, and I've never felt better. Depression is a pernicious beast. It seeps in slowly subsuming all rational cognitive faculties, to the point where I was not merely sad, I was obstinately despondent, and refused to listen to reason. It emanated from a "feeling" of meaninglessness which I could never eliminate with mere rational thought. I guess my "chemicals" were just fucked up, and I needed a little help from the Lexapro.

So, what do you do if you're not successful? Anything else you want. The world is your oyster. Failure ultimately means as little as success. If you don't succeed at something you enjoy, then simply keep doing it, keep enjoying it, maybe you haven't struck gold yet but the journey is worth embarking on once you realize that contentment doesn't lie at the end of the journey, but within it's entirety. If you feel it's too late to start, there's still plenty of beauty left in life. Sometimes I find the following Kurt Vonnegut quote useful:

> "What is the purpose of life? To be the eyes, the ears, and consciousness of the creator of the universe, you fool!"

Now, I'm fairly young, I expect my opinions are biased by the fact that I personally feel like I still have a lot of time left to embark on journeys. I can understand if the perspective changes as you age, and feel as if you missed out or squandered your best years. Hopefully someone older can step in and share their thoughts.

I also hope I don't sound like I'm proselytizing. Just wanted to share my experience if it helps anyone.

[joeberon]

Try mindfulness, seriously

[surajs]

disagree with point no. 4 , wrong reasons for not doing sth