[mschuster91]

> Is there a strong feeling of innovation/unicorn envy among the wider business culture in Germany?

Everyone wants to be like the SV hipsters, no one can because the higher-ups are still mentally and literally stuck in fax times, there is almost no venture capital (and the venture capital that is here gets invested into stuff like Rocket Internet whose "business model" is to copycat US ideas), banks (across the EU) won't dish out dumb money because unlike the US we have public funded pension systems and not capital-based ones and we have strict loan regulations (Basel framework).

> Is it a fear of being stale

Culturally, us Germans are known for being extremely risk-averse, bankruptcies are socially shamed. This of course clashes with the US way of life that from the bottom to the top embodies "fail fast", and the youth yearns for change but as explained above that's hard to do.

[raverbashing]

Who says the US doesn't follow the Basel framework? https://www.federalreserve.gov/supervisionreg/basel/basel-de...

[lazyjones]

> there is almost no venture capital

That's simply not true. There is a lot of VC but there aren't many good startups - because the best people are heading straight for SV instead of dealing with a second-rate environment and a second-rate (in IT) labor force.

[gumby]

The German venture market (USD 6B) is about the size of a second tier market like Los Angeles. MoneyTree says that SV investment In Q1 of 2020 was about 2X Germany’s total for last year.

Not to mention that what gets invested in is mostly food delivery, shops and not particularly technical businesses (which are a very large investment sector in the US but aren’t considered “startups”. What gets written up in, say, Gründerszene are companies like the one that would tell you where to get your car repaired.

[lazyjones]

> The German venture market (USD 6B) is about the size of a second tier market like Los Angeles.

I don't know where that number comes from, but I'll assume it's the sum of investments and not the sum of capital available for investment since the latter is a bit hard to determine.

[gumby]

Deals done into {Germany,LA,SV,SF} from funds anywhere in world. That’s what I think is meant when someone says there is “almost venture capital” — is money available to invest there? These data are available from the usual sources online (Moneytree report, E&Y etc etc etc in English and German sources).

I don’t know of any German funds that make venture investments outside Europe though doubtless some exist. Still, if you want to back into the size of the domestic venture funds, pick a percentage (70%?) of the investments made as having come from domestic sources and figure that a fund wants to put all its committed capital to work within the first couple of years, and figure that the total venture pool is perhaps $7B. There are bigger single venture firms a few blocks from my house in Palo Alto. For example I walk past Accel every day to get a coffee.

As you say there just aren’t many companies there being funded, and when I read the local blogs and such people seem to want “the lifestyle” (or hate it) more than talking about building major businesses. To me it’s indistinguishable from people starting a sandwich shop.

[lazyjones]

> Deals done into {Germany,LA,SV,SF} from funds anywhere in world.

That's not the same as the available venture capital. If there are no good investments to be made, the potential venture capital simply isn't (all) invested. So the point that lack of VC is a problem is wrong, it's the attractive startups that are missing. It's the same in Austria - I invested in 2 startups, got a little burned and have since not invested for lack of good opportunities. I've also been asked a few times by a larger German company for my opinion on potential investments, so I know they're looking and can't find anything worthwhile. Funding is not the problem! And the "market size" is only indicative of the (too few) good startups, not of the potentially available capital.

[gumby]

If you think that’s the case why not invest in the USA?

[sushshshsh]

May I also additionally ask how on Earth a 50k salary for a software engineer is at all justified? After paying taxes and rent, it seems to me there is not much money left over for saving or lifestyle spending?

It seems like an unfair situation

[jlangenauer]

Why is it unfair? No-one is forcing anyone to accept development work for 50k per year, yet there are plenty of people happy to do it.

[sushshshsh]

Define plenty? It seems to me the other commenters have offered counter points to you.

In the US, before taxes, an income of $130,000 to $170,000 is the norm in bigger cities. I imagine based on my calculations that the difference between Berlin's discretionary income for SWE and NY/SF/SEA/BOS is probably an extra $50,000 post tax.

[Tomte]

And what do you think do houses cost in Germany, compared to "bigger cities" in America?

I know plenty of people in that income range myself who do own houses (or apartments in some cases) and wouldn't think of forgoing their summer vacation in Menorca or Ibiza.

"The other commenters" is just one, and he's factually wrong. No matter how much HNers love to pile on, 50k Euros is a respectable income in most parts of Germany.

The idea that all software engineering is in Stuttgart, Munich or Berlin is laughable. We have lots and lots of family companies of the so-called "Mittelstand" strewn across the province (but West Germany primarily). Some of those are hidden champions. In towns and regions few Americans will ever have heard of.

[sushshshsh]

I've heard of plenty of American and also German towns and cities and even if I was living for free in a caravan (which I've done for many months in my life, much like Germans who go to music festivals will do in the summer), I don't see how it is possible to make a substantial savings in life on a yearly post tax income of $25,000.

After an entire decade of working, this will only result in a best case scenario of $250,000 in savings, which, for my personal lifestyle is not going to work. I think collective action for higher wages is proper here.

[lazyjones]

> how on Earth a 50k salary for a software engineer is at all justified?

Too many mediocre developers available (local & EE), too few good ones (they're in the US, UK, Switzerland). Also, if you can't find software engineers at that price, you just close the office and move it to Poland or so. Hence fewer employers remain.

[Tomte]

And yet, people manage to buy houses and fly on vacations on that income.

[rob74]

Trust me, in Germany with that income you can either buy an apartment (not a house, at least not in a place where you will find a software developer job nearby) or fly on vacations, but not both...

[patall]

My parents earn together ~90k, just bought a house and travel about 4 weeks a year through all of europe and still support us three kids. So thats not true, at least not if you are living in a smaller city. And for places like Berlin or Munich, 50k a year would be ridicoulously low. CEO in a start-up in Berlin told me a few month ago that they are hiring poeple with literally 2 to 3 coursera courses in machine learning for around 60k, more experienced people rather in the range of 90k. Big corp like Bayer will hire you with a PhD starting around 120k (as analyst without further responsebilites, team managers obviously get more). Given the Copay on Retirement and Health Insurance, that equates to an US salary of around 150k USD. Quite a bit lower than SV, but not as bad as some people want to make it.

[pheug]

You get 401k match and health insurance at any good employer in the US too. As well as much lower taxes. German taxes are just batshit crazy, second only to Belgium. How people can afford to FI/RE with these taxes and pay is beyond me. Oh wait they don't! One of the lowest median wealth per adult in western Europe!

[realityking]

I‘m not saying you‘re wrong, but the media wealth statistic are heavily distorted by two facts

1. our retirement systems is based on a generational contract, not capital 2. home ownership is very low

If you control for both the results would look very different. Now #2 obviously causes a huge issue in terms of generational wealth.

[econcon]

I don't think it's true, a lot of my German friends have been traveling for 3 years in south East Asia without having any real job while I hear from German old men that new generation is not as passionate about working as they were at their time. So what gives? How do Germans maintain such high quality life without working, it's mystery to me.

[ChuckNorris89]

Easy, inherited wealth. Germany has one of the most unequal wealth distributions in Europe.

Their boomer parents worked hard and saved a lot and managed to buy lots of assets, especially real estate, back in the 60's - 80's when salaries were high and properties were cheap. Now they can just kick back and relax while all that sweet rent money, that skyrocketed in the last two decades, comes in.

If you move to Germany now you definitely won't enjoy this kind of standard of living as your rent costs will be financing their mortgages while you won't manage to save enough to buy one of your own since property prices now are way higher, wages are low and taxes are high.

[sushshshsh]

Thank you for providing your perspective :)