[ragnese]

My intention here isn't necessarily to tell you what to use or buy.

1. There is nothing legally binding here, as far as I can tell. Apple software is almost entirely closed source. Zoom told us they were encrypting our stuff, too. I know that Apple can't get away with too much because of their size, but I have a very strong distrust of big tech companies that I'll likely never shake because of the disgusting track record silicon valley has toward privacy and short-sighted profit-making. Take this text for example: "Apple can’t read your iMessages while they’re being sent between you and the person you’re texting." What does it mean that it can't see them while they're being sent? Can they see them once they're at rest? Is this just innocent vagueness of the English language, or sneaky shit? Similarly, they say they can't see your location in Maps. They make no promise with the browser. In fact, they don't promise they aren't snooping on 100% of the stuff in Safari- they only say they try to protect you from other companies tracking you.

2. I don't disagree with you. And I'm just kind of a Luddite because I just don't care if I can run SnapChat or whatever on my phone. I can browse the web with a solid, privacy-respecting, browser (Firefox) with all of the privacy addons I want. I can use that browser to access the things I care about. I do use a closed-source navigation app, unfortunately, but it isn't Google and doesn't require Play services. I lock down its permissions as best I can. I use Signal for most of my messaging needs, which works fine. The one thing I actually do miss is ride-sharing apps when I travel. That's a major inconvenience. But some shitty game or social media app whose entire purpose is to track you (whether you use/trust Apple/Google's OSes or not...)? No thanks, anyway. In fact, I think there's another point in here that most of these apps are tracking the hell out of you, regardless if you trust your phone's OS.

[jjcon]

> Is this just innocent vagueness of the English language, or sneaky shit?

They use simple language to make it not seem like legalese - If you want the tech details see the white papers they have linked.

> What does it mean that it can't see them while they're being sent? Can they see them once they're at rest?

No messages are end to end encrypted by default

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

> they say they can't see your location in Maps. They make no promise with the browser

Apple Maps doesn’t have a browser version, just and iOS and Mac OS app. Additionally see above link, all location and search history is end to end encrypted - maps searches (and other location based events that cannot be encrypted due to server side processing) are not linked to your Apple ID.

> In fact, they don't promise they aren't snooping on 100% of the stuff in Safari

Again see above link, safari history and tab sync is also end to end encrypted

[ragnese]

I wasn't being clear with the maps-browser comment. I meant that they make no promise that they aren't tracking your location outside of the Maps app.

It's great that they claim to end-to-end encrypt their stuff. And after the FBI standoff around the San Bernardino shooters phones, I recommend that my friends and family use Apple because the options for most humans are between Windows and macOS on PCS, and iPhone and (stock, OEM) Android for phones. They definitely talk the talk and appear to walk the walk. We can never truly know, though.

I know there's no point in arguing further. I fully acknowledge that I have less objective reason to believe that Apple is tracking me than you have to believe that they're not. But all of my friends thought I was the crazy tinfoil hat guy in the period between the signing of the U.S. Patriot Act and Edward Snowden. And after that... they still think I'm the crazy tinfoil hat guy. Maybe I'm a broken clock and was right once, or maybe Silicon Valley is full of corporate scumbag liars and maybe companies lie about their encryption (Zoom) and about their stance on privacy (Facebook). Maybe Apple is the lone shining beacon of privacy in SV. Maybe.

[saagarjha]

> Apple Maps doesn’t have a browser version

It can, however, be integrated via the JavaScript SDK. DuckDuckGo uses it, for example.

[scarface74]

There is nothing legally binding here, as far as I can tell. Apple software is almost entirely closed source.

So is everything that makes Android, Android -- Google Play Services. Not to mention all of drivers.

[ragnese]

Everything except for the Android part, sure.

But you're definitely letting perfect be the enemy of good if you think that closed-sourced drivers means that e.g., a closed source web browser doesn't increase your privacy attack surface.

Life is full of choices between imperfect options. And security/privacy is always qualified with "from whom". Sure, closed source drivers are not ideal and I am more vulnerable to privacy attacks from state actors. But why should my response to that be to just willingly give all of my personally identifiable information to Google, Inc?

[scarface74]

You mean the “Android parts” that Google keeps abandoning for their own closed sourced versions?

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on...

[ragnese]

Yes, that's what I mean. But you're moving the goalposts. I, too, fear that there will not be a usable, open source OS for smartphones in the near future. But that's not what I said above and it's not what you appear to be arguing.

Today, AOSP is absolutely open source. You're acting like it's not.

[scarface74]

And absolutely useless for any company that wants to sell a phone outside of China without Google Play Services. Most phones run with Google’s closed source equivalents not the unmaintained AOSP versions.

You don’t know what the apps on your Android phone is doing because they all interact with Google Play Services. Most phones don’t even use the open source dialer.

[ragnese]

That's all true and fine. But is there anything I said that hints that I'm a company trying to sell an Android phone without Google? If not, what are you refuting exactly?

I said that we don't know what Apple software is doing because it's all closed source. You then spent the last several replies trying to convince us that the same is effectively true of Android. It's not. You know how I know? I'm writing this reply from a Pixel 2 running LineageOS without Google Play Services. Is it a pain in the ass to do this kind of setup? Yep. Do I miss out on TikTok? Probably (I don't want it, so I don't know if it requires Play Services). Is it closed source? No.

In any case, refuting my claim that we can't trust Apple by arguing that we also can't trust Google doesn't actually refute a thing.