[clarry]

>> I don't think this can happen today and I also believe this is the reason we don't see anything close to the original Deus Ex.

> The solution to that is to look outside of the traditional gaming paradigm.

I don't think indie & VR gimmicks are the solution to lack of games that are close to the original Deus Ex. It's not revered for original superb mechanics; most of everything it does was done before. It's that it put them all together and did so many things right to create a polished, immersive experience with a compelling story (rather footed in reality as opposed to all out scifi/fantasy), strong plot focus (as opposed to disconnected mass-produced side quests), rich level design, lots of choice and player freedom, great music, replay value..

Hardly anyone is doing that. But, evidently, a lot of gamers want that.

> If you're only looking at games like Deus Ex then it could be easy to miss all the other stuff going on.

I just don't see anything that really compels me. Stuff is going on, and it's mostly not worth my time (or does a terrible job marketing itself).

[dageshi]

> Hardly anyone is doing that. But, evidently, a lot of gamers want that.

Not enough really, we've had the Deus Ex reboot (Human revolution), Dishonored, Prey and their respective sequels, they're all great games but they didn't do amazingly, they mostly did "ok", they're all now on hiatus with their studios working on other franchises.

I think these games (immersive sims) are actually pretty difficult to make and the reward just isn't there vs other genres out there right now.

[clarry]

I haven't played Dishonored or Prey but if HR is any indication, then they aren't all that great. No comparison to Deus Ex.

[Grimm1]

I thought HR was fantastic and was happy with Mankind Divided, I'm disappointed we won't see the reboot finished. I'd love if it lead into a modern reboot of the original DeusEx.

I think your criticisms of the RPG element, which is what the xp pop ups and stuff were, are overly harsh. I would have been happy without timit actions but they were all the rage when HR came out, so I can forgive Eidos for also doing them.

[dageshi]

And that's why they won't make any more... they're held to a much higher standard than other genres of games. People nitpick these games to death, meanwhile CoD is played by tens of millions every year. If you're a game dev, you'd be mad to try and do another immersive sim.

[clarry]

> And that's why they won't make any more... you'd be mad to try and do another immersive sim.

To be clear, I don't think they even tried, as far as DX:HR is concerned. Instead, it looks like they tried hard to borrow ideas from these mainstream console games and made an anti-immersive "sim" that constantly takes you into third person, floods the screen with XP & loot popups and other UI noise, replaces melee weapons with "tap E to watch a mini-cutscene where MC beats up a guy", features busywork-filler-padding sidequests for the instant gratification RPG addicts, etcetra.

I think, if someone actually tried, this is a proven niche where one could definitely find some success.

As far as the FPS genre is concerned: boy do people nitpick them. You can point at a handful of super popular titles, and for each, there's a mountain of forgotten and thoroughly mediocre (or worse) first person shooters.

There's no single genre where success is for granted. In general, there's a long tail of games that get little attention and a small bunch of "rockstars" that everyone plays.

[dageshi]

A triple A game isn't viable on PC alone nowadays, it has to release on console and hence has to account for what modern (both PC and console) players expect. You're claiming to be a fan of this niche but haven't played any of the major releases in it from the past 10 years (Dishonored 1 & 2 + Prey), if you haven't played those games as a fan of the genre then what chance does the genre have? These were big games, marketed well by a major publisher (Bethesda).

As for genres, your point about only x number of games becoming a success is taken, but I guess my counter to that is, if you become a success in the shooter genre the upside is 10x or 100x what it would be for an immersive sim because the market for fps is much much bigger than those for immersive sims.

[clarry]

I didn't claim to be a fan. How I feel about the success potential of this niche comes merely from observing other gamers (everyone seems to know Deus Ex, Dishonored, etc. and mostly everyone praises these and would like to play more games like that; that's probably also why there's so much hype for e.g. Cyberpunk 2077, and CDPR is obviously trying to capitalize on the success of immersive 1st person cyberpunk fps-rpgs).

I might be a fan, but I rarely buy new games myself, so extrapolating anything at all from my gaming habits probably tells nothing about the market at large. I generally don't buy any new game unless it's DRM-free, has native Linux support OOTB, and doesn't come with crazy overpriced moneygrab editions or a shitload of DLC.

[Grimm1]

The Witcher 3 was one of the most successful games in a long time, I don't really get this idea that the genre is dead.

[MaxBarraclough]

Human Revolution was a prequel, not a reboot.

[laumars]

> I don't think indie & VR gimmicks are the solution to lack of games that are close to the original Deus Ex.

I don't think flatly calling all indie and VR games as "gimmicks" does justice to some of the more innovative creators out there.

> * It's not revered for original superb mechanics; most of everything it does was done before. It's that it put them all together and did so many things right to create a polished, immersive experience with a compelling story (rather footed in reality as opposed to all out scifi/fantasy), strong plot focus (as opposed to disconnected mass-produced side quests), rich level design, lots of choice and player freedom, great music, replay value..*

I was gaming back then as well. It was mostly the mechanics people seemed to talk about at the time (and the graphics too).

In any case, story driven games have existed long before Deus Ex and still exist now.

> I just don't see anything that really compels me. Stuff is going on, and it's mostly not worth my time (or does a terrible job marketing itself).

I see these kinds of comments all the time and frankly a lot of it is rose tinted glasses. You will naturally favour the games you grew up with. As it was, I grew up with text adventure games and crappy 8-bit conversions of arcade games so as much as I enjoy modern games I'm often still going back to Pac-Man and it's ilk because 3D is too "modern" for me. Like with how people harp on about how cartoons aren't as good as when they were kids, people make the same arguments for computer games too.... but that doesn't mean it is true.

[clarry]

> It was mostly the mechanics people seemed to talk about at the time (and the graphics too).

Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then. They were dated on the day Deus Ex came out; it uses the original Unreal engine (with some tweaks) and looks just as dated. Rendering technology moved fast back then and a game as large as Deus Ex had no hope of staying ahead of the curve. Plus they had to make some compromises to fit such a large scale game on disk & in RAM (there were other UE1 games that looked arguably better). I recall reviews considering Deus Ex's graphics "boxy" (literally!) and it has plenty of super small textures..

The thing that most people praised was the freedom. That's part mechanics, but what I was trying to say is that very few of the mechanics in Deus Ex were innovative; mostly they just did a great job incorporating mechanics that already existed in prior games. That's the ticket. You don't need to innovate and make some superb new mechanics to make a new Deus Ex quality game.

> In any case, story driven games have existed long before Deus Ex and still exist now.

Yes, but few games pull all the elements I mentioned above together. Deus Ex has "all the parts", and for most part it's done well, therefore it's more than the sum of its parts. Yes, story driven games exist, but few of them incorporate all the other elements that made Deus Ex what it is.

> I see these kinds of comments all the time and frankly a lot of it is rose tinted glasses.

I see people always dismiss this as nostalgia. I call bullshit, if only because I played very few games "back in the day" (and I don't like most of the games I had back then; I played them only because I really didn't have anything else to play).

Most of the old games I discuss today are games I've only played sometime during the last decade for the first time. And I keep finding old games that I really like, and then I don't like their sequels, and I have a hard time finding new games that I like as much.

[laumars]

> Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then.

I'm pretty sure they did. Unfortunately I don't still have any magazines of that era

> They were dated on the day Deus Ex came out; it uses the original Unreal engine (with some tweaks) and looks just as dated.

Back then "with some tweaks" and high resolution textures did make a significant differences

> I recall reviews considering Deus Ex's graphics "boxy" (literally!) and it has plenty of super small textures..

I guess our recollections differ then. I do remember the game ran slooooow compared to other games out there that used the Unreal Engine. Perhaps you had to run the game at a lower texture quality or resolution than other games?

> Yes, but few games pull all the elements I mentioned above together. Deus Ex has "all the parts", and for most part it's done well, therefore it's more than the sum of its parts. Yes, story driven games exist, but few of them incorporate all the other elements that made Deus Ex what it is.

Basically your criticism here is few other games are Deus Ex since if everything you loved about Deus Ex was copied you'd just end up with the same game. And if that happened you'd probably also criticise it for not being original.

> I see people always dismiss this as nostalgia. I call bullshit, if only because I played very few games "back in the day"

That's exactly it though. You don't have to love every game you grew up with but you did have to spend time playing Deus Ex because you had fewer options verses now where you are able to skip game the moment your attention wavers.

[clarry]

>> Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then.

> I guess our recollections differ then.

IGN: As good as the gameplay is, visuals aren't one of Deus Ex's stronger points. Since it's built on the Unreal engine, Deus Ex isn't as pretty as other first-person games like Quake III or Soldier of Fortune. The graphics are blocky, the animation is stiff, and the dithering is just plain awful in some spots [...] (between presentation, graphics, sound, gameplay, and lasting appeal, graphics got the lowest score)

Gamespot: Deus Ex's graphics aren't very good, either. Though the game uses Epic Games' Unreal engine, which was once lauded for its exceptional visual quality, Deus Ex is actually a fairly bland-looking game because of its incessantly dark industrial environments.

(I could've sworn PC gamer also considered the graphics blocky, but I can't find that right now)

HDTP: The original in-game textures were of a very low resolution, some textures even being as low as 32x32.

For comparison, Doom (1993) had 128 px tall wall textures. Quake 3 (1999) shipped 256x256 textures and generally much better looking (and more dynamic) visuals thanks to its shaders and gamma hack. Unreal shipped hi-res s3tc textures (sorry, can't figure out what the resolution is right now).

Also I think Deus Ex used indexed (256 color) textures, while Quake 3 engine based games used truecolor. At least I remember having to dither & convert textures to 256 color gifs back when I did some Deus Ex modding..

> Basically your criticism here is few other games are Deus Ex since if everything you loved about Deus Ex was copied you'd just end up with the same game. And if that happened you'd probably also criticise it for not being original.

Absolutely not. My criticism is that very few other games try and let alone manage to put all the elements together as competently as Deus Ex did. You absolutely can deliver an original story & setting with all the elements that made Deus Ex good without making the same game. Virtually nobody today is trying.

> That's exactly it though. You don't have to love every game you grew up with but you did have to spend time playing Deus Ex because you had fewer options verses now where you are able to skip game the moment your attention wavers.

No, that's not it. You missed the part where I mention old games in plural. Yes, old games other than Deus Ex, that I played sometime post 2010 and liked a lot (more than most recent games I try to play). Deus Ex is rather the exception, in that I both played it back in the day and enjoy it a lot (even today). Most of the games that I like from that era are not games I played in that era. And most of the games I played back then are not games I would enjoy today. So the vast majority of my opinion about old games does not come from nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but from discovering them on GOG and playing them post 2014 (which is when I created my account on GOG and started trying out these old games I never had a chance to play back in the day).

I have zero reason to believe in nostalgia making much difference in how I feel about games I play today. I can pick up a game I loved 25 years ago, and get bored in 30 minutes because it's actually not that good. I can pick up a game I never played 25 years ago and love it because it's actually good. I can pick up a game I heard about 25 years ago and wanted to play, and find out it's actually not good. I can pick up a game I hated 25 years ago and like it, because it's actually better than I thought back then.

Actually playing these games today is the best way to dispel nostalgia, and usually 15 to 120 minutes is more than enough time for that.