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by 0d9eooo 2192 days ago
As a former tenured professor I've been watching all of this with a bit of empathy, anxiety, concern, and schaudenfreude. Many of my best friends and colleagues are at the university and it still forms a huge part of my life.

In speaking with many students and colleagues, one thing has struck me, which is that many of the current undergrads are enrolled because they want to get away from home. They want some true transition to adulthood, where they live on their own and develop into an independent adult with a vocation and adult identity. This is maybe what I've heard articulated here and elsewhere about being exposed to new ideas, etc. but maybe isn't quite the same. It's something I never really quite appreciated the importance of until recently, but looms large in their minds. Many of them, even though they're taking courses "off-campus" and online, are still in their college town living in their apartment, and so forth. They didn't go home, they just stayed put.

The analogy with books and music is telling because for awhile there too there was a lot of hype about how the internet would lead to some radical reorganization and disruption of those industries. And in many ways it did. But many of the power inequities, the monopolies, and so forth are the same, and the fundamentals are the same. We've migrated a lot from radio and physical media to streaming services, but the players are still there. I suspect something similar will happen with universities; we'll just see a lot more diversity in what form an undergraduate education actually looks like. For some it will involve 4 years in a dorm / on-campus setting. For others it might be more eclectic. There are also some things that just can't really be duplicated at home: an undergrad isn't going to go out and purchase a mass spectrometer for the most part, or PCR equipment, or have storage room full of embalmed anatomy specimens to dissect.

One thing that's important to be mindful of is that this on-campus experience many of us remember is in many ways evaporating anyway. I don't mean to say that's ok, or acceptable, or whatever, but sometimes we talk about the experience of being on campus and discussing things with others in person, forgetting that a major societal issue right now is how that that used to be the norm for everything and is increasingly not. So we have these chats online, on HN comment sections, or over IM, or videoconferencing anyway, even if you're not in college. Whatever might be lost from the on-campus experience is being lost everywhere to some extent; I point this out only to suggest that if we're ok with it in some domains, why should college be special? Or is college the canary that we should be paying closer attention to?

I agree with the perspective of the author of the article that something fundamental needs to change, but my guess is 10 years from now everything will look very different and the same at the same time. I also think there's many problems with universities and higher education that have nothing to do with the cost-benefit calculus in some abstracted sense, but rather to do with how it should be paid for, whether universities are funded well enough, whether they're getting those funds from the right places, whether administration is too top-heavy, whether employers and society abuse interpretation of degrees, and so forth and so on.

4 comments

"...where they live on their own and develop into an independent adult with a vocation and adult identity."

One can see where you are coming from since these desires are pretty normal around that age right? I think that the trade-off here, however, is two fold:

1) That lifestyle is expensive and puts many young adults into debt before they've even learned and lived financial independence.

2) It delays the inevitable hard work and time that we all must put in contributing as a net positive to the real world economy.

Add 1+2 together and the output in large numbers yields people in bondage lacking the mental fortitude to actually sustain and prosper independently as an adult over the course of their lifetime.

I don't disagree with these points, but I do think many individuals entering college are looking for some kind of extended [rite of] passage or something into adulthood, and I do think college provides that for many.

I don't necessarily think it has to be that way, and I don't necessarily think it's the best way, certainly not for everyone, but I think for a lot of people it provides one way. Right now I think it's a broken path, but I'm not sure what other paths there are to replace it at the moment, given that employers (for the most part, maybe not entirely) seem to be abandoning that role.

To me the bigger underlying subtext in a lot of these discussions is the vacuum that currently exists in terms of providing a safety net for people as they find their way. I think this could be provided by employers or something but I really don't think it is at the moment; colleges might also be flawed in being too expensive or not really delivering on their promises or something, and maybe we're at an inflection point. But if you think of spaces where society is ok with people figuring things out, or learning, or not really being fully developed yet, college is a major place. Outside of that it increasingly feels like people are treated as machines, interchangeable and replaceable, with little to no sense of potential or anything of that sort.

Believe me, I feel like universities are very broken at the moment in many many ways. I just don't really see them going away in the near future, even if they are remade, and I think there's a good opportunity for society to really remake them in a way that's more useful, whatever that is. It may involve restructuring what a college education entails, or paying for it with public funds, or whatever, but that opportunity is there.

Thanks for sharing your reply/viewpoint. There is no correct single answer, but it's not so binary, I believe that self employment + entrepreneurship are underrated in the dynamic.
This is a wonderful comment, thank you.

The most valuable part of college for me (I can say now a decade later from graduating) had nothing to do with the content and everything to do with the experience and connections I made.

My professor helped me land my first job. My classmates ended up in the industry and helped connect me to opportunities and some became (so far) lifelong friends.

This would have been much less likely if I took online courses while living with my parents.

> One thing that's important to be mindful of is that this on-campus experience many of us remember is in many ways evaporating anyway.

I read here that you're not talking about the pandemic specifically, but of the increasing digitization of society as socializing, work, entertainment and education all go online. and you're right, this is a huge social issue that connects to mental health, social cohesion, political life, social skills gaps and how we relate to each other. It's a change we are crashing into without any idea of the consequences. And yes, maybe digitizing our formative coming of age experiences is a step too far, or maybe we just need VR tanks.

Thanks for this comment! Universities are where the majority of scientific research is conducted today, and I hope that won’t go away anytime soon (severely restricting immigration and funding might change that). Many of the Professors I worked with considered teaching to be an obligation; they would rather spend their time on research (doesn’t mean they don’t teach well, some do, others don’t). As long as we continue to find research Universities themselves won’t be going anywhere.