[coreai]

After using a rMBP for 6 years, I realized that using a lower resolution and lower quality display makes absolutely no sense at all if both graphical power and budget is available (first 13' rMBP had some serious issue driving the display). Better quality image is better quality image. I think Apple's biggest selling point over any vendor right now, despite numerous issues with its hardware and software in the recent past, is absolutely top class input and output. It is such a simple concept. A great keyboard (seems to be fixed now) and absolutely incredible trackpad experience along with a display that basically is a huge step up from your past experience means that most users will prefer that setup even if they just use it for basic coding or web browsing. After looking at the first retina displays I realized that Apple didn't just change the displays but it changed how fonts behaved completely because the crisp and clear legibility was key to attract customers early on. I'd say even in 2020 most computers are struggling with good displays which can completely ruin the experience for someone using the product even if every other aspect of it was great.

[bredren]

I've been focused on Apple display products for the past few months as I'm looking to make an upgrade from the Dell P2715Q 4k 27" I use primarily for development.

There is a three page thread on using the Apple 32" XDR for software dev on MacRumors. [1]

I believe there is a major product gap at Apple right now in the mid-market display. Specifically a replacement for the LED 27" Cinema Display which was announced 10 years ago next month. [2]

I am speculating that Apple could announce a new 27" 5k in part because of the rumored announcement of a new Mac Pro but also because the build quality of the LG 5k Ultrafine is just not great and there are obvious synergies with XDR production and Mac Pro.

I think this should be announced at WWDC is because developers specifically are being left out of good display products and Apple should be looking out for what they stare at all day.

While there are no supply chain rumors of such a display, I wargamed what this product might be and its pricing anyway.[3]

In short, I speculate Apple will release a 27 inch IPS display, 5120 x 2880 @ 60Hz with standard glass at $1999, Nano-texture Glass at $2799.

I had not paid a lot of attention to the refresh rate, but it does seem like kind of a miss that the XDR does nor offer this.

---

[1] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/xdr-for-software-dev.22...

[2] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2010/07/27Apple-Unveils-New-2...

[3] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/wishful-thinking-wwdc-d...

[caymanjim]

I have a Dell P2715Q and I'm happy with it. I haven't tried anything with a higher resolution or DPI, but I can't see any individual pixels on the Dell, so for the moment, it's good enough for me.

I can't go back to sub-4k though. Looking at a 24" 1920x1080 monitor tweaks my brain. Pixels ahoy. It's jarring. I'm not the kind of person who cares about superficial things or style or brand at all, but I just can't get comfortable with sub-4k anymore.

Be very wary of Apple monitors. If you can, try one out in the environment you intend to use it in, before you commit. Apple displays are highly reflective. The glare is obscene. The display quality is great, but I can't deal with the eye strain. It's like there's a mirror glaze on top. They used to offer a matte option, but I don't believe they do anymore. It's painful.

[rootusrootus]

> 27 inch IPS display, 5120 x 2880 @ 60Hz with standard glass at $1999

That's $200 more than it costs with the computer built in. Would rather see it more aggressively priced, or at least bring back target mode.

[bredren]

This is an important point. I have a pal with an aging 5k imac that he wishes he could use only as a monitor with a new mac mini.

It seems display tech in imac is severely discounted in order to sell the whole thing. And it does seem to break the pricing if you don't see them as different products offering value for different configurations.

Bringing back target mode, or allowing the iMac to act as an external monitor would greatly increase the value of that product.

I can't explain how this pricing makes sense exactly, except that I can only assume Apple will want or need to price this stuff high to help differentiate the build quality in comparison to the collaboration on LG's ultrafine.

[freeqaz]

I bet somebody could make a business refurbishing those old 5K iMacs into usable monitors. Either yank the panel into a new case w/ a custom board to drive the display, or hack an input into the existing system (maybe with a minimal booting OS).

Either way, that'd be a cool product to see and seems like a decent side hustle to get some $. :)

[udp]

I recently bought a 2015 27” 5K (5120x2880) iMac core i5 for cheap, put in an SSD, and upped the RAM to 24 GB. It handles everything I can throw at it as a developer (albeit not a game developer, just “full stack” web/java/node/k8s) and the screen is just incredible.

The SSD upgrade is not for the faint hearted, however. I used the iFixit kit with the provided “tools”, and lifting off 27” of extremely expensive and heavy glass that sounded like it might crack at any moment was not exactly fun. Having said that - I would do it again in a heartbeat to get another computer/display like this for the price I paid.

With regards to scaling: I have had zero problems with either my rMBP (since 2013) or this iMac, when in macOS running at high resolution. Zero. As soon as I boot Windows or Linux, however, it’s basically unusable unless I turn the resolution down.

[ianhowson]

I've got a Planar IX2790 and it's great. Article is spot-on re. scaling -- it's much nicer to look at all day (native 2x scaling) vs. 4k at 1.5x scaling.

[bredren]

Thanks for this idea. The design looks surprisingly like the old cinema display. Actually, apparently they use the same glass from the cinema display but no camera. [1]

It looks like the main concerns on this are around stuck pixels. Have you gone through calibration / QA on yours? [2]

Otherwise, seems like a compelling alternative to the Ultrafine.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comments/8zomas/i_just_rec...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/comments/e5n9y5/planar_ix2...

[ianhowson]

I believe the theory that it's 5k iMac panels that Apple rejected. I have a few stuck pixels but I never notice because they're so small. I have a blue stuck-on in the lower-right quadrant and I can't even find it now.

I haven't bothered calibrating it.

[ksec]

I kind of thinking such Display's "Design" could overlap with the new iMac. One reason Apple used to having a "Chin" in the iMac was to distinguish it as a Computer and not a Monitor / Cinema Display. Judging from the leaks, New iMac would not have a Chin at all, and since there is no similar sized Cinema Display in the Line up this doesn't really matter.

I just wish they bring back Target Mode, or something similar to iPad's SideCar.

[Polylactic_acid]

We had a blind installed over a window at the office because the apple users found it unbearable reflecting off their screens.

[bredren]

I'm in agreement. Apple might have:

- Proved and debugged on the XDR release at the pro price point.

- Kept working on how it can be cheaper and fit into plans for whatever the ARM-based machine's initial graphics capability will be.

- Designed it to use a similar manufacturing line to the iMac then offer it at a lower price point to support the current mac pro, mac mini and a possible dev kit for the arm mac.

Or I suppose just keep making everyone buy the LG 5k ultrafine that is four years old. :P

[gonehome]

I really wanted the new Apple display, but I just couldn't bring myself to pay $14k for a pair of them.

I ended up going with Dell U2720Qs, and after some tedious initial work to get them running natively at 60hz, they're fine.

I would have bought the Apple displays in a second though if they had been priced up to maybe even 3k each.

[diroussel]

I have just got a U2720Q, it worked at 60Hz right away. But I am connecting over USB-C, with the provided cable.

What it did find off-putting is that Dell say they don't test with Macs, and thus can't support them, but they just assume that Appl follow the same specification they do. A bit weak, but the monitor does work fine.

[coob]

I've just switched to a an LG "5K2K" ultrawide [1]. 5120 x 2160 and fairly reasonably priced.

[1] https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide-monito...

[bredren]

Thanks for this idea. The product page says it is 218 PPI, but I don't see how that is possible given it is 34" wide. Pixensity says teh actual PPI is 163.44. Can you confirm the PPI on this monitor?

https://pixensity.com/list/lg-34wk95u-w-39631/

[coob]

It's 163. I think the 218 you got from a Cmd-F and picked up the SEO blurb for the 5k ultra fine in the footer).

I cannot tell the difference between the LG and my MacBook's retina screen at my normal viewing range, but this may just be my eyes.

I also use a non integer scaling factor on both screens as I find it has the right combo of resolution and real estate for me, and I don't notice artefacts.

[delecti]

I honestly find MBP trackpads to be too big, which is admittedly a preference thing, but their keyboards are absolutely horrible, and I have difficulty understanding how anyone could think they were "great". There's not enough distinguishing keys from each other, so I can't ground myself to the home row. I can't think of many keyboards I've used throughout my life that I enjoy less than the MBP. And that's not even mentioning the quality issues (duplicated or broken keys), or the lack of Fn keys.

[stu2b50]

Are you talking about the butterfly (2016-2019) keyboards or the new magic keyboard OP (2020) was talking about?

[delecti]

I was talking about the butterfly keyboards. I don't see anything in the comment I replied to that really lines up with what you're saying.

[stu2b50]

>A great keyboard (seems to be fixed now)

The "fixed now" part is the replacement of the Butterfly keyboard across Apple's laptop (and even the iPad docks!) lineup

[delecti]

You might be right, though if so that would also imply they thought it was great before it was fixed, and I still disagree with that.

[diffeomorphism]

For the trackpad I agree, but definitely not for the keyboard. And apple was late(!) to hires screens and to hidpi and now has lower res and density than the competition (e.g. 16:10 better 4k on dell xps or 3:2 screens with MS and others).

Also, apple had TN screens forever when the similarly priced competition had higher res IPS screens.

[EForEndeavour]

Isn't 4k on a laptop a significant power drain? And isn't the point of "stopping" at Retina resolution that the human eye can't tell the difference between Retina and higher resolutions like 4K at typical laptop screen size and viewing distance?

[ksec]

>Also, apple had TN screens forever when the similarly priced competition had higher res IPS screens.

As far as I am aware Apple only used TN screen for their MacBook Air. They were also the first to push Retina / Hi PPI Display on Consumer PC.

[diffeomorphism]

Before "retina" apple used TN and lower res displays on their mbp (compare WUXGA dreamcolor for hp or flexview on thinkpads).

They were not the first. That would be Sony Vaio for hidpi and ultrabooks and ibm and hp for hires ips. Apple were the first widely successful ones.

[mthoms]

>And apple was late(!) to hires screens and to hidpi

Are you sure about that? It doesn't seem to mesh with my recollection.

[ric2b]

Apple's marketing is a powerful machine.

[diffeomorphism]

Yes.

[mthoms]

Actually, no.

>At 220 pixels per inch it’s easily the highest density consumer notebook panel shipping today.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/6023/the-nextgen-macbook-pro-...

>"Of course, the real highlight is that new Retina Display. Its resolution is 2,880x1,800 pixels, providing a level of detail never seen on a laptop before. The highest standard Windows laptop screen resolution is 1,920x1,080 pixels, the same as an HDTV."

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/apple-macbook-pro-with-retina-d...

>The signature feature of the new MacBook Pro is the new 15.4-inch (39.11 cm diagonal) Retina display. [...] So far, no notebook screen has topped resolutions of 1900 x 1200 pixels (WUXGA) or 2048x1536 (QXGA in old Thinkpad models).

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-Re...

If you manage to dig up some obscure laptop that had a higher resolution at the time I wouldn't be completely surprised. However, to suggest that Apple was "late(!)" with high DPI screens is provably false and frankly, ridiculous.

[robertoandred]

Who else had high dpi screens in 2012?

[robertoandred]

Who else had hi-res screens in 2012?

[TacticalTable]

Nobody in the laptop scene. They were the only ones with an OS that could correctly handle scaling at the time.

[wtetzner]

I had a 1080p Alienware laptop in 2004. Then for some reason, laptops all went even lower resolution for a long time, and I couldn't find a good one until Apple came out with their Retina displays. Not sure what happened. Manufacturers just became cheap?

[wtetzner]

I've found the keyboard on my Surface Book to be much better than the keyboard on any of the MBPs I've used and owned.

The trackpad was just as good, too. But of course, the OS was worse, mostly in terms of performance. Windows 10 just always feels slow for some reason.