[talideon]

No, we're not in agreement. You're confounding a bunch of independent things, and that is what I object to.

It's neither fair nor correct to mush together CPython's async/await implementation with the implementation of asyncio.SelectorEventLoop. They are two different things and entirely independent of one another.

Moreover, it's neither fair nor correct to compare asyncio.SelectorEventLoop with the event loop of node.js, because the former is written in pure Python (with performance only tangentally in mind) whereas the latter is written in C (libuv). That's why I pointed you to uvloop, which is an implementation of asyncio.AbstractEventLoop built on top of libuv. If you want to even start with a comparison, you need to eliminate that confounding variable.

Finally, the implementation matters. node.js uses a JIT, while CPython does not, giving them _much_ different performance characteristics. If you want to eliminate that confounding variable, you need to use a Python implementation with a JIT, such as PyPy.

Do those two things, and then you'll be able to do a fair comparison between Python and node.js.

[crimsonalucard1]

Except the problem here is that those tests were bottlenecked by IO. Whether you're testing C++, pypy, libuv, or whatever it doesn't matter.

All that matters is the concurrency model because that application he's running is barely doing anything else except IO and anything outside of IO becomes negligible because after enough requests, those sync worker processes will all be spending the majority of their time blocked by an IO request.

The basic essence of the original claim is that sync is not necessarily better than async for all cases of high IO tasks. I bring up node as a counter example because that async model IS Faster for THIS same case. And bringing up node is 100% relevant because IO is the bottleneck, so it doesn't really matter how much faster node is executing as IO should be taking most of the time.

Clearly and logically the async concurrency model is better for these types of tasks so IF tests indicate otherwise for PYTHON then there's something up with python specifically.

You're right, we are in disagreement. I didn't realize you completely failed to understand what's going on and felt the need to do an apples to apples comparison when such a comparison is not Needed at all.

[talideon]

No, I understand. I just think that your comparison with _node.js_ when there are a bunch of confounding variables is nonsense. Get rid of those and then we can look at why "nodejs will beat flask in this same exact benchmark".

[crimsonalucard1]

> I just think that your comparison with _node.js_ when there are a bunch of confounding variables is nonsense

And I'm saying all those confounding variables you're talking about are negligible and irrelevant.

Why? Because the benchmark test in the article is a test where every single task is 99% bound by IO.

What each task does is make a database call AND NOTHING ELSE. Therefore you can safely say that for either python or Node request less than 1% of a single task will be spent on processing while 99% of the task is spent on IO.

You're talking about scales on the order of 0.01% vs. 0.0001%. Sure maybe node is 100x faster, but it's STILL NEGLIGIBLE compared to IO.

It it _NOT_ Nonsense.

You Do not need an apples to apples comparison to come to the conclusion that the problem is Specific to the python implementation. There ARE NO confounding variables.

[talideon]

> And I'm saying all those confounding variables you're talking about are negligible and irrelevant.

No, you're asserting something without actual evidence, and the article itself doesn't actually state that either: it contains no breakdown of where the time is spent. You're assuming the issue lies in one place (Python's async/await implementation) when there are a bunch of possible contributing factors _which have not been ruled out_.

Unless you've actually profiled the thing and shown where the time is used, all your assertions are nonsense.

Show me actual numbers. Prove there are no confounding variables. You made an assertion that demands evidence and provided none.

[crimsonalucard1]

>Unless you've actually profiled the thing and shown where the time is used, all your assertions are nonsense.

It's data science that is causing this data driven attitude to invade peoples minds. Do you not realize that logic and assumptions take a big role in drawing conclusions WITHOUT data? In fact if you're a developer you know about a way to DERIVE performance WITHOUT a single data point or benchmark or profile. You know about this method, you just haven't been able to see the connections and your model about how this world works (data driven conclusions only) is highly flawed.

I can look at two algorithms and I can derive with logic alone which one is O(N) and which one is O(N^2). There is ZERO need to run a benchmark. The entire theory of complexity is a mathematical theory used to assist us at arriving AT PERFORMANCE conclusions WITHOUT EVIDENCE/BENCHMARKS.

Another thing you have to realize is the importance of assumptions. Things like 1 + 1 = 2 will remain true always and that a profile or benchmark ran on a specific task is an accurate observation of THAT task. These are both reasonable assumptions to make about the universe. They are also the same assumptions YOU are making everytime you ask for EVIDENCE and benchmarks.

What you aren't seeing is this: The assumptions I AM making ARE EXACTLY THE SAME: reasonable.

>you're asserting something without actual evidence, and the article itself doesn't actually state that either: it contains no breakdown of where the time is spent

Let's take it from the top shall we.

I am making the assumption that tasks done in parallel ARE Faster than tasks done sequentially.

The author specifically stated he made a server that where each request fetches a row from the database. And he is saying that his benchmark consisted of thousands of concurrent requests.

I am also making the assumption that for thousands of requests and thousands of database requests MOST of the time is spent on IO. It's similar to deriving O(N) from a for loop. I observe the type of test the author is running and I make a logical conclusion on WHAT SHOULD be happening. Now you may ask why is IO specifically taking up most of the time of a single request a reasonable assumption? Because all of web development is predicated on this assumption. It's the entire reason why we use inefficient languages like python, node or Java to run our web apps instead of C++, because the database is the bottleneck. It doesn't matter if you use python or ruby or C++, the server will always be waiting on the db. It's also a reasonable assumption given my experience working with python and node and databases. Databases are the bottleneck.

Given this highly reasonable assumption, and in the same vein as using complexity theory to derive performance speed, it is highly reasonable for me to say that the problem IS PYTHON SPECIFIC. No evidence NEEDED. 1 + 1 = 2. I don't need to put that into my calculator 100 times to get 100 data points for some type of data driven conclusion. It's assumed and it's a highly reasonable assumption. So reasonable that only an idiot would try to verify 1 + 1 = 2 using statistics and experiments.

Look you want data and no assumptions? First you need to get rid of the assumption that a profiler and benchmark is accurate and truthful. Profile the profiler itself. But then your making another assumption: The profiler that profiled the profiler is accurate. So you need to get me data on that as well. You see where this is going?

There is ZERO way to make any conclusion about anything without making an assumption. And Even with an assumption, the scientific method HAS NO way of proving anything to be true. Science functions on the assumption that probability theory is an accurate description of events that happen in the real world AND even under this assumption there is no way to sample all possible EVENTS for a given experiment so we can only verify causality and correlations to a certain degree.

The truth is blurry and humans navigate through the world using assumptions, logic and data. To intelligently navigate the world you need to know when to make assumptions and when to use logic and when data driven tests are most appropriate. Don't be an idiot and think that everything on the face of the earth needs to be verified with statistics, data and A/B tests. That type of thinking is pure garbage and it is the same misguided logic that is driving your argument with me.

[talideon]

Buddy, you can make all the "logical arguments" you want, but if you can't back up them up with evidence, you're just making guesses.