[crimsonalucard1]

I see this elitist attitude all over the internet. First it was people saying “Guys why are you over reacting to corona the flu is worse.”

Then it was people saying “Guys, stop buying surgical masks, The science says they don’t work it’s like putting a rag over your mouth.”

All of these so called expert know it alls were wrong and now we have another expert on asynchronous python telling us he knows better and he’s not surprised. No dude your just another guy on the internet pretending he’s a know it all.

If you are any good, you’ll realize that nodejs will beat the flask implementation any day of the week and the nodejs model is exactly identical to the python async model. Nodejs blew everything out of the water, and it showed that asynchronous single threaded code was better for exactly the test this benchmark is running.

It’s not obvious at all. Why is the node framework faster then python async? Why can’t python async beat python sync when node can do it easily? What is the specific flaw within python itself that is causing this? Don’t answer that question because you don’t actually know man. Just do what you always do and wait for a well intentioned humble person to run a benchmark then comment on it with your elitist know it all attitude claiming your not surprised.

Is there a word for these types of people? They are all over the internet. If we invent a label maybe they’ll start becoming self aware and start acting more down to earth.

[ben509]

> Nodejs blew everything out of the water

Node's JIT comes from a web browser's javascript implementation used by billions of people. It's also had async baked in from day one.

Python started single process, added threading, and then bolted async on top of that. And CPython is a pretty straight interpreter.

A comparison between Node and PyPy would be more informative, but PyPy has a far less mature JIT and still has to deal with Python's dynamism.

> If we invent a label maybe they’ll start becoming self aware and start acting more down to earth.

You can't lecture people into self-awareness, any more than experts can lecture everyone into wearing masks.

[crimsonalucard1]

Except IO is the bottleneck here. The concurrency model for IO should determine overall speed. If python async is slower for IO tasks then sync then that IS an unexpected result and an indication of a python specific problem.

[ben509]

> Except IO is the bottleneck here.

If you say IO is the bottleneck, then you're claiming there is no significant difference between python and node. That's what a bottleneck means.

> The concurrency model for IO should determine overall speed.

"Speed" is meaningless, it's either latency or throughput. Yeah, yeah, sob in your pillow about how mean elites are, clean up your mascara, and learn the correct terminology.

We've already claimed the concurrency model is asynchronous IO for both python and node. Since they are both doing the same basic thing, setting up an event loop and polling the OS for responses, it's not an issue of which has a superior model.

> If python async is slower for IO tasks then sync then that IS an unexpected result and an indication of a python specific problem.

Both sync and async IO have their own implementations. If you read from a file synchronously, you're calling out to the OS and getting a result back with no interpreter involvement. This[2] is a simple single-threaded server in C. All it does is tell the kernel, "here's my IO, wake me up when it's done."

When you do async work, you have to schedule IO and then poll for it. This[1] is an example of doing that in epoll in straight C. Polling involves more calls into the kernel to tell it what events to look for, and then the application has to branch through different possible events.

And you can't avoid this if you want to manage IO asynchronously. If you use synchronous IO in threading or processes, you're still constructing threads or processes. (Which makes sense if you needed them anyway.)

So unless an interpreter builds its synchronous calls on top of async, sync necessarily has less involvement with both the kernel and interpreter.

The reason the interpreter matters is because the latency picture of async is very linear:

* event loop wakes up task * interpreter processes application code * application wants to open / read / write / etc * interpreter processes stdlib adding a new task * event loop wakes up IO task * interpreter processes stdlib checking on task * kernel actually checks on task

Since an event loop is a single-threaded operation, each one of these operations is sequential. Your maximum throughput, then, is limited by the interpreter being able to complete IO operations as fast as it is asked to initiate them.

I'm not familiar enough with it to be certain, but Node may do much of that work in entirely native code. Python is likely slow because it implements the event loop in python[3].

So, not only is Python's interpreter slower than Node's, but it's having to shuffle tasks in the interpreter. If Node is managing a single event loop all in low level code, that's less work it's doing, and even if it's not, Node can JIT-compile some or all of that interpreter work.

[1]: https://github.com/o0myself0o/epoll/blob/master/epoll.c

[2]: https://www.programminglogic.com/example-of-client-server-pr...

[3]: https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/3.8/Lib/asyncio/unix_...

[crimsonalucard1]

>If you say IO is the bottleneck, then you're claiming there is no significant difference between python and node. That's what a bottleneck means.

This is my claim that this SHOULD be what's happening under the obvious logic that tasks handled in parallel to IO should be faster then tasks handled sequentially and under the assumption that IO takes up way more time then local processing.

Like I said the fact that this is NOT happening within the python ecosystem and assuming the axioms above are true, then this indicates a flaw that is python specific.

>The reason the interpreter matters is because the latency picture of async is very linear:

I would say it shouldn't matter if done properly because the local latency picture should be a fraction of the time when compared to round trip travel time and database processing.

>Python is likely slow because it implements the event loop in python

Yeah, we're in agreement. I said it was a python specific problem.

If you take a single task in this benchmark for python. And the interpreter spends more time processing the task locally then the total Round trip travel time and database processing time... Then this means the database is faster than python. If database calls are faster then python then this is a python specific issue.

[catalogia]

You're making the classic mistake of assuming a common thread connects the people who've annoyed you in various unrelated contexts.

[zaptheimpaler]

I mean no one even mentioned node. Maybe it is faster idk. But we're talking about python?