[_delirium]

It definitely matters in Europe, possibly moreso than in the USA, at least in the circles I've been in (I'm white myself, so this is mostly from observation and friends). In Denmark at least, there is a lot of awkwardness around race, and it certainly isn't the case that non-white people generally feel comfortable in groups where they're the only non-white person (even worse if everyone else is not only white, but specifically of Scandinavian ethnic heritage, which emphasizes the not-like-me-ness even more). I'm not sure of the exact reasons, or how much is actual racism, but there is definitely a vague sense of weirdness/discomfort.

[Udo]

That's interesting. I'm from Germany myself, and I'm convinced it's the most unfriendly "western" country ever. There is certainly a lot of racism here, but it generally happens in socially and economically compromised regions with low unemployment, and then it's usually directed toward the Turks (because "they took our jooooooobs"). Not that there are many black people in Germany to begin with, but I worked with a lot of people from different ethnicities over the years and I always got the impression that we're all being treated equally (shitty).

[wheels]

That's a fairly typical German viewpoint. It's something that caught me a bit off guard when I moved to Germany 9 years ago.

Germans have a real aversion to noticing their own racism, no doubt that's a product of cultural baggage, but racism is pretty rampant in Germany and permeates all levels of society.

A few of questions to suss things out a bit: What would you or your friends parents think if you announced your engagement to a Turkish girl / guy? If in most of society racism isn't problematic, what do you think the chances of an ethnically Turkish chancellor being elected are? Why are people whose grandparents immigrated to Germany still commonly referred to as foreigners?

[Udo]

> What would you or your friends parents think if you announced your engagement to a Turkish girl / guy?

I have been in a relationship with a Turkish girl for eight years, dude. Everyone was OK with it. Not once did anyone say anything about it. You know what? It was just fine.

> That's a fairly typical German viewpoint

Did you just assert that I'm a "fairly typical" German racist? If you knew me at all you wouldn't accuse me of painting Germany in an overly positive light. I hate it here.

[wheels]

Sorry, no, my intent was not at all to paint you as being racist. What I meant as "typically German" is that most Germans, even those who are not particularly racist themselves, have something of a blind-spot for noticing the depth of racism within German society.

And sure, there are families where race is a non-issue. I could list examples as well of where I've seen things go the other way, but that's side-stepping my point: surely you'd agree that in many, many families it would be an issue?

[Udo]

> even those who are not particularly racist themselves, have something of a blind-spot for noticing the depth of racism within German society.

In this context it's worth pointing out that my grandpa was a Nazi, and even worse, as is one of my cousins to this day - in an otherwise lefty-liberal family. So if I want to see racism, I don't have to look very hard. But even the Nazi cousin behaved normally toward my girl friend at the time, I guess his hatred is geared more toward anonymous concepts and not actual people. When I asked him flat-out, he spouted some nonsense about how my girl friend is somehow not part of "The Turkish Problem" at all.

> surely you'd agree that in many, many families it would be an issue?

I'm not even remotely qualified to answer this in a meaningful way, especially after the feedback I got here today. All I can say is that, being from Germany, I know a lot of people who elevated being mean and destructive into an artform. Some of them are fascists, some of them are bad in other ways. What I can attest to is the general social climate here, it's just as bad as the actual climate.

[Gizzle]

Well, I was born in Russia and moved to Germany 20 years ago with my family, I was 11 then. Today I consider myself as German, so far the background. What is really true, even if you speak native German and identify yourself with the people and the country, for most Germans, you are not German. I do not mean it in the negative way, I think it is just the way it is, if you have not a German name or look "Russian". But I do not have/ had any problems with it. Moreover I realized, that although people know you are originally not from Germany, you are valued on your skills (at school, job, sport, etc) and not by you ethnical background. And those people from Russia/Turkey or whatever who claim they are discriminated e.g while looking for a job I just can repeat, no, you just did not tried hard enough. In Russia there is a saying: You are greeted by your look, but bid goodbyed for your skills. I think in Germany this is a very reality.

[Deorte]

May I kindly ask to not pick on Germans in this context?

[elliottcarlson]

Interestingly, the same viewpoint exists in Belgium but towards Moroccans and not so much the Turks. The problem is that in the 60's Belgium had a guest worker program which brought the majority of the Turks and Moroccans to Belgium. This helped build up a lot of portions of Belgium however when the worker program was ended in the mid 70's people failed to realize that at this point people had established themselves in a new country and they weren't simply going to go back to their home countries. With family reunification laws these guest workers were able to bring in their families and settle themselves completely.

There is a lot of racism back in Belgium towards Moroccans, and they are certainly treated as the minority group (at least when I lived there 10+ years ago). This leads me back to a previous post in this thread, where the bottom line is that minority's aren't offered the same opportunities as other citizens and therefor behave differently back towards society - causing further racism. Sadly this has caused it to go as far as having a far-right political party (Vlaams Blok) gain more and more traction because the views of the populous are slowly matching their viewpoints on nationalism.

It would not surprise if the same mentality exist in various other countries that are experiencing the same type of historical issues with regards to racism.

[makmanalp]

Turkish here. The keyword here is probably "socially and economically compromised regions". I haven't felt any hostility or superiority from any Germans I know, and I do know more than a few.

In the US, I've also never felt alienated but that might be because my English is at the native level and I don't have a discernible accent (I sound like your average American). When people do find out that I'm Turkish, they seem to be pleasantly surprised and impressed, and I feel like it creates a positive impression of Turks in general. Top tip for foreigners: try to learn the local language well.

[pdelgallego]

As a Hispanic developer living in Copenhagen, I feel neglected in some IT meetings and job interviews.