[ses1984]

I'm not a philosopher nor a political scientist, I'm not making a technical argument.

Are you asking about the inter change ability of the state and collective?

Did George Floyd benefit as much from the apparatus of government as Donald Trump? That's the difference between the state and the collective in my mind.

Or are you asking about inter change ability of individual and collective? I think it's pretty obvious...

[throwaway_pdp09]

I guess I was unclear.

> ...the state and the collective aren't the same thing

What's the difference? How in your view do they differ?

[ses1984]

The state is composed of the institutions, elected and appointed officials bureaucrats, etc. The collective includes everything else. I'm a part of the collective. I'm not a part of the state.

[throwaway_pdp09]

Oh, ok. I treated them as synonymous. I can see how "the state" could mean its formal structures only, but I included everyone in it. I'll mind the distinction more carefully now.