[einpoklum]

Also, you swear your oath to defend the _constitution_, against all enemies foreign and _domestic_:

https://www.army.mil/values/oath.html

this comes _before_ the obligation to obey orders. Meaning that, at least in principle, a soldier is obligated to disobey unconstitutional commands, and in fact, to act to countermand them.

Of course that's not what armies are like in practice, but still.

[RashadSaleh]

I have mentioned this already folks. Nobody has the authority to break the law - not a general nor the president nor a judge nor a district attorney nor a member of parliament. A law remains the ultimate authority until it is voted out of practice.

[JoeAltmaier]

Not having the authority, has little to do with the moral imperative to consider overriding circumstances.

We all have complete authority to make personal choices as we see fit.

[RashadSaleh]

What you call the moral imperative wasn't voted on, doesn't have a police to enforce it, doesn't have a judge to interpret it, doesn't have a media to debate it, and you just might happen to change your mind about it a couple of years into the future.

Even if you say that your strategy is to make people (including yourself) feel guilty about breaking this imperative, and amplify this feeling as much as possible so as to compensate for the lack of organization required for a proper law, it is not certain that that will ever work and I don't know of an example where it did work, although it has been tried over and over. And if I may say, it also corrupts human nature so even if it worked I won't be personally positive about it, but that is just me.

[JoeAltmaier]

That's why its called 'morals'. The compass inside us, we use to decide what's right and wrong. Its the reason anybody does anything - including follow the law when it seems like the right thing to do.

That 2nd part - where did that fantasy come from? Not sure how to respond.

[RashadSaleh]

All disputes in a civil society must be resolved peacefully through elections and courts of law. Nobody can be above the law, for whatever reason. What you call morals is something that nobody voted on, nobody debated, no judge interpreted it, no police to enforce it.

Why should I be bound by your values but you can't be bound by my values? You are free to use your moral compass (and should) when voting, when debating, when campaigning, when serving, etc. But once a final vote has happened, the law is supreme and even those who voted it into practice cannot change their mind and decide to violate it, until the next vote happens.

Just imagine what it would be like to establish the "morality police". The first problem that arises is what should be considered moral and therefore needs to be enforced, and what should not be considered moral and therefore not enforced. And how do you decide that? Through voting, debate, a free press, separation of powers, etc.

[JoeAltmaier]

Because, I'm already only 'bound' by my own values. As is every thinking person.

This is silly. Reiterating the same point (laws are important) isn't getting anywhere.

[RashadSaleh]

And your neighbour thinks the same. And by the way they have a gun. In a civil society disagreements are solved peacefully through voting and clear structures of accountability so you don't need to guess if you are responsible or not.

Even the same person disagrees with themselves over time. People who vote this way this election, vote the other way the next one.

You devise me a system where people are above the law according to their own judgement at the particular moment they see fit, and still not have violence.

This is why you can fight your entire life for the reform you like to see happen, and still not get it. But 50 years of exchanging ballots is always better than 5 minutes of exchanging bullets.

[JoeAltmaier]

All that strife, today, is prevented by morals and not laws. When it works anyway.

[RashadSaleh]

And the best one of those morals is the conviction to follow the law impartially.