[MikeTheRocker]

I'm a Canadian software that moved from Victoria, BC to San Francisco, CA to begin my career two years ago. My top earning friends in Canada of the same experience level earn 2 - 4 times less than me and my peers here. I'm saving significantly more here than them too even after a much higher cost of living. The quality of life here is worse though in some ways. Most of all I miss the politeness and generally less hostile demeanor of Canadians.

[core-questions]

> The quality of life here is worse though in some ways

So what you need to think about is this: if you would be putting away, say, $50k less a year in Vancouver, it's essentially like you're paying $50k more to live there. Is it worth it to you?

Compared to San Fran, it has a more hospitable and interesting climate, the culture is perhaps less vivacious but definitely safer and more genteel, the outdoors and recreation opportunities nearby blow away anything in California, and the fact that the local institutions and governments are still relatively well-run has a positive impact on the long term stability of the place.

The question is: are you looking for somewhere to _live_, to settle, to raise a family, to put down roots? Are you looking for somewhere to be _from_? Or are you a member of the globetrotting class, working wherever you feel like, being _from_ nowhere?

If the latter, then you may as well follow the money for as long as you can. If the former, then it may well be worth some numeric financial sacrifices in order to actually have a better life. There's probably plenty of equivalents in "flyover" states and the like, where you can live for cheap and be safe and stable relative to the major cities.

[twiceaday]

These words would be fine if we were talking about a 20% pay difference. But we are talking about a 100-200% pay difference. And if you save half your pay in Vancouver, moving to SF increases your savings rate by 4-6x. This gets significantly better with lower savings rates. That is absolutely crazy. It would be so deeply irrational to have these options and choose Vancouver early in your career. Even just a single four year contract in the bay will completely change your financial situation. Do one or two contracts _then_ move to Vancouver.

[core-questions]

> It would be so deeply irrational to have these options and choose Vancouver early in your career.

That is, if your only consideration is financial; which is an equally irrational way to live your life. You have to consider the social cost of uprooting yourself and moving around - there is huge value in building not just a "network" but an actual group of friends, other families, etc. to form community. This of course is something often missed by the sort of small-souled bugmen that are attracted to working at high-value Silicon Valley jobs, "changing the world" by "disrupting" the way people deliver pizza or call a cab. (Imagine pouring out your best years slaving away at something so meaningless!)

If you spend the early years of your career living in an $2000/mo room in some bunkhouse, not developing real connections with anyone, and then drop out of the sky in another city as you approach 30, don't be surprised if you've missed out on many of the other things that actually make life worth living, and don't be surprised if you've paid other opportunity costs. Maybe you miss out on finding the love of your life, or don't find them until you're too old to start a family. Maybe you find yourself permanently rootless, unable to form a cohesive friend group, perhaps even skeptical that they actually exist.

Or just notice all the human shit on the street in SF and realize that you could actually live somewhere you honestly liked to be. It's that simple.

[twiceaday]

This seems to be a sensitive topic for you. Too much vitriol and straw-men. 'Only financial' is naive. Your life is heavily structured by the need to earn a living. You focus on how awful life is in SF and how nice it could be elsewhere yet you will only get to enjoy this life on evenings and weekends because you are working full time. A lot of people I know don't have time / energy for hobbies or friends outside of chores, family stuff, and decompressing from work. Most people are forced to play this game but if you have enough money you can start changing the rules. With enough money you can regularly take years off work to do... anything you want. Travel, meet people, write a book, deeply pursue hobbies, etc. With enough money you can work part time for the rest of your life and actually have the time and energy to enjoy it. And with enough money you can retire early, as early as in your 30s, to get unlimited freedom. It's not 'only financial,' it's paradigm shifting. It's 'only financial' if you are resigned to working until you are 65 or whatever and assume everybody else is too.

[sailingparrot]

> My top earning friends in Canada of the same experience level earn 2 - 4 times less than me and my peers here

2 is possible, 4 seems like a big stretch. Are you really comparing apples to apples? Or are you working for Google and comparing against someone working for a random consultancy firm in Victoria? In Montréal, top software developers salaries are around 200K CAD, a bit more if you go at Google, and Montreal pays less than other cities.

[betaby]

200K CAD is basically unheard in Montreal for the IC. I know only one person with total compensation like that and she is kind of tech manager. 135K Cad is very high in Montreal for IC, median for the senior developer is around 90k, 100K considered very good.

[chrisandchips]

To OP, or another curious reader, I think you need to take these kinds of posts with a grain of salt. That salary is rare in montreal, but it is also an extremely affordable city to live in. If you are seeking a comfortable life, I personally don’t think you need to be sweating whether you’re earning 120k or 200k CAD in a city like that.

[sailingparrot]

It's high but not unheard of (I am talking about total comp, not base salary). I know plenty of IC making that and more. Of course I am biased, since I work for an employer that does pay that kind of salary, so of course I know a lot of my colleagues. This might only be achievable if you work for one the top AI companies in the city however (Google Brain, Facebook Lab, Microsoft etc.). I don't really know how it's like outside of my bubble.

And I agree that this is not common at all but OP was talking about "top earning" friends.

However, even taking your median figure of 100k, I doubt the median salary in the bay for a senior software engineer is 300K USD (4 times more).

[betaby]

Facebook Lab is how many employees in Montreal? 10? Microsoft doesn't pay 200k CAD in Montreal in total comp to IC not even close to that.

[sailingparrot]

> Microsoft doesn't pay 200k CAD in Montreal in total comp to IC not even close to that.

You might want to get more up to date info on that.

[dleslie]

They said it was the beginning of their career.

Particularly on the island, in Victoria, it's quite possible for an entry level position to earn only around 33,000 to 45,000 CDN.

[MikeTheRocker]

At the risk of sounding like I'm boasting, I'll share concrete figures. I earn about $285k USD (~$380k CAD) as an L4 SWE at a FANG company. My top earning friends in BC work at companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Juul and earn about $60-$120k CAD.

[raydev]

I wonder if this is a BC-specific problem, because Amazon and Shopify appear to be paying seniors in Toronto around $150-200k CAD/year+RSUs. With Google opening an office, and Snap already here, and Yelp already here, and Square already here, and others, I think the market in Toronto has already started changing.

[MikeTheRocker]

Even if they were making $250k CAD total compensation in Toronto, as a senior engineer at top companies in the Bay Area, Seattle, NYC, etc. you can make $350-$400k USD ($470-530k CAD). We're talking about earning $150-$200k more. Working just 5-10 years with savings like this would be life changing.

[raydev]

I wasn't arguing that at all, only that things appear to be much better for SEs in Toronto than Vancouver for some reason.

And I've said elsewhere in thread, I'd happily move my family down (I'm a US citizen) if I thought it was possible to buy health insurance that would guarantee coverage for all issues. I've heard too many stories of insurance companies refusing to pay for emergency treatments because the hospital happened to be out of network.

[sailingparrot]

> My top earning friends in BC work at companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Juul and earn about $60-$120k CAD

Are your top earning friends L4 or equivalent? If not the comparison is worthless.

Those looks very much like junior level salaries. 90-100K$ CAD for a junior position at one of the FANG in Canada is as low as you can go.

[dleslie]

SAP paid that well when I worked there five years ago, and they're right down on Hamilton street.

[baseballMan]

Damn man.. I really need to just suck it up and try and get a job in the US when COVID wraps up and we can get across the border again. I don't really want to work there and be so far away from family but it just doesn't make financial sense to keep doing what I'm doing.

I make really good money for my 3 years of experience (compared to others in my city with my level of experience) but it's just such a hilariously large gap at this point that it'd be dumb for me not to at least try and get a job.

[brailsafe]

I'd visit first and see if you want to live there more than Canada. I generally quite like Vancouver, and although I don't have the visa requirements for the states, I have no interest in moving on-location there despite the financial gap. I'd focus on what your interests are outside of work and then work to accommodate that.

[aprdm]

Amazon certainly pays around 200k cad total compensation in Vancouver now a days..

[neonate]

Thanks for sharing this. People don't realize, and often refuse to believe, how large this gap has gotten. (Patio11 has written about that quite a bit.) It's...crazy.

[dleslie]

Then you're probably an outlier; that's well outside of the normal for software engineers in California based on data I can find.

[ponker]

FAANG engineers are the highest paid 10% of software engineers in California.

[dleslie]

Sure, but not every software engineer in California is a FAANG engineer; and even among FAANG engineers that stated salary is rather high.

It's not particularly useful to make claims that one can earn enormous amounts by changing region without also acknowledging that such an opportunity is only available to a small minority.

[fsociety]

Yep this is pretty similar to my experience

[jayparth]

The best jobs? Granted I don't know what "the best jobs" are in Victoria, but that seems surprising. Are there big tech offices in Victoria?

If there aren't good jobs there then it's a different story.

[dleslie]

There's hardly anything in Victoria. It's a Government and Retirement town.

Edit: apparently my perspective is dated; see the replies.

[chrisfosterelli]

Tech is the city's biggest industry.

https://www.victoriachamber.ca/about-victoria.html

[dleslie]

Was just reading this; sounds like tech started becoming a growth industry recently. Neat!

https://www.vicnews.com/business/booming-tech-sector-in-grea...

[TheBiffer]

No so. Victoria has a thriving software community.

[chrisfosterelli]

There's a significant amount of startups / medium companies / consultancies but no "heavy hitter" offices like FAMGA, which is probably a driver behind the state of salaries. There is some Amazon presence through an acquisition they made on ABE books. Though there's also lots of remote workers here too for big companies like Github / etc.

[throwmyusername]

Workday. Unless they moved out of Victoria cause it's hard to recruit.

[raydev]

I moved to Canada from the US and stayed when I got married and had children.

I think about moving us to the Bay Area, but I'm now so terrified of what happens if one of us gets sick and insurance decides not to cover it for whatever reason.

Also, at least outside of Toronto, I feel like I can pick any decent-sized city in Canada and not be in danger of putting my kids in an underfunded school district. Violent crime rates here are lower, property crime rates are lower.

But yeah, I'm giving up probably $200k/year for it. We're doing okay, though.