[idealboy]

Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday.

We refused to leave and fortunately they left and let us have a peaceful march.

There doesn’t seem to be an interest in separating out the extreme minority that protest violently. There had been zero violence or destruction that day. A very well-behaved crowd exercising peaceful civil disobedience met by violence from police. In 2020.

[baybal2]

Not insightful at all.

> after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction.

The thing is that they can. That's a very deliberate tactic, down to planting of provocators.

If you been watching what's going on around the world, the allegations of that, including provocator planting, followed pretty much every major demonstration event.

It's naive, if not silly, to use that "hey, he started it first!" argument at the time when the fact of confrontation happening is already obvious.

The talk now should not be who started the violence, but how to end it, a peace treaty to say.

[kelvin0]

Exactly.

There exists an asymmetry in the dynamics of protesters vs police during a protest. Very simple:

Anyone can be 'planted' in a group of protesters to start stirring up trouble (agent-provocateur). Then the police have 'justification' to use whatever amount of force they think is required.

On the other hand, it's practically impossible for a regular citizen to be embedded into a riot police response unit.

Add to that the police have practically no real oversight and investigate themselves (assuming internal affairs counts as police).

One side can't fail (except morally), while the other side always will end up with the shorter end of the stick.

[mc32]

People also can counter plant and plant someone to feign being a first level plant to be able to point out that the violence was instigated by a plant. Both sides can and do do that.

[kelvin0]

This changes nothing to the end result. One side (Police) still has a major advantage.

[david38]

This is a gross oversimplification. I have family members in law enforcement. In most cases it’s very difficult to tell the people apart. People can barely identify a single thief, unmasked, caught on camera, yet somehow they have these god-like powers to identify troublemakers who weave through the crowd of protesters, all masked?

[mr_spothawk]

If you can do so without doxxing yourself, I'd appreciate to have a city to associate with these types of stories.

Thanks.

[ncallaway]

This isn't exactly the same because things have been a little more chaotic in places in Seattle, but a lot of the force I've seen from the Seattle PD has been disproportionate.

Mostly flashbangs, fireworks, tear gas and mace.

A couple of videos associated with incidents in Seattle from tonight are here:

- https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161

- https://twitter.com/jxyzn/status/1267684722341064704 (same incident, higher angle)

- https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1267673936659021830

The general characterization I would give is that there have been calm periods, and then moments of intense chaos. In the chaos, protestors have often been throwing projectiles (mostly plastic bottles, occasionally firecrackers; some have claimed bricks have been thrown in Seattle, but I haven't seen it myself).

However, in general I would say that the SPD has repeatedly been the party to _instigate_ the chaos, by launching a round of flashbangs, mace, and pepper spray.

[briandear]

Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet? Weren’t we told that the reopen protesters were putting people at risk by protesting from their cars? I don’t disagree with the reason for protest, but if a church can’t be open, even outdoors, and an extended family picnic is illegal in a public park, then I am not sure the rationale for allowing protests now. The first amendment isn’t conditional on the reasons for gathering or speaking. The mayor of Oakland even supported the protests held there while just recently maintaining that “non-essential” businesses couldn’t open. I am just trying to reconcile why a small restaurant in Oakland can’t be open, but thousands of people marching in a massive group is somehow allowed. And it seems, politically speaking that a similar demographic that was just days ago telling everyone to stay home to protect us from the plague suddenly changed their public health tune as soon as something they care about was the issue.

Are the lockdowns optional now? Are they situational depending on the politics of the event? Because it sure seems like it. Georgia got hammered for reopening too early, but nobody had much to say about Atlanta having massive protests over the past days. Either the lockdowns are unnecessary or they are necessary and people are putting public health at serious risk with these “large gatherings.”

I wish we could reboot 2020. It’s a g-damned mess.

[rallison]

Nobody likes that these protests are likely to lead to increased transmission. It's a truly terrible choice. People are making that choice because these protests get to such a fundamental problem in our society that they are still worth it, despite the cost. And, as has been mentioned, mask usage is high, and these protests are outside. It doesn't eliminate the risk, but many, many people are still trying to minimize the public health risk.

So, yes, context matters. I would absolutely argue the value in the being part of the strongest push against police brutality in decades, that just might result in systemic change, is incredibly more worthy than virtually any other activity. It does not mean there is no public health cost. It does mean it is a tragic choice to have to make.

[dchichkov]

Work. Volunteer. Take care of your family. Vote. It's a bit of a bad timing for protests right now - easily exploited, will likely result in negative change.

[celticninja]

perhaps ask the US police if they could kill unarmed black males at more appropriate times maybe?

[dchichkov]

It is not a good idea to protest on the streets right now. It is selfish to protest on the streets. First - it spreads COVID. Which kills people in thousands. Second - it prolongs shelter-in-place and associated damage. Third, likely increases the possibility of re-election of the current president.

[idealboy]

Yes, I and about 90% of the crowd wore masks. Yes, we did our best to keep 6 feet but not always, hence the masks. People were walking around with hand sanitizer to share.

A global pandemic is awful, but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility.

Was it uncomfortable and difficult? Yes. Am I glad I went? Hell yes. Black lives matter.

[craftinator]

Plus, it's awfully hard to avoid spraying spit and snot on everyone around you when you're getting tear-gassed. I know, I've been cs-gassed many, many times. The police are not helping the situation with this tactic.

[kortilla]

> but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility.

The protests haven’t worked though for the last 20 years or so. IMO it’s more important to vote and promote change than to block traffic.

People remember how you made them feel more easily than what you actually said. Preventing them from getting somewhere is a great way to just piss people off.

[jamiewilson]

It’s no wonder that the protests over the last 20 years haven’t worked to garner more support considering that those who do participate are treated with violent retaliation. Maybe if those of us begging to be heard were allowed to speak, and scream and chant, it would inspire more people to unite, organize and vote.

[cpursley]

> Maybe if those of us begging to be heard were allowed to speak, and scream and chant, it would inspire more people to unite, organize and vote.

You can. As far as I know, the US is still a democratic country with elections.

[untog]

Is it even worth going through the ways in which US democracy is broken? From the electoral system itself all the way down to extremely obvious voter suppression efforts (often specifically targeting black people), you really can't be too surprised that people do not feel that their voices are being heard.

[kortilla]

Occupy Wall Street was not meant with violence and it was huge headline grabbing protests that went on for weeks. It didn’t do anything meaningful.

[jpster]

IMO the media was not talking about income & wealth inequality before OWS. OWS forced it on the agenda and changed the very language we use to describe it: “the 99% vs the 1%”. That’s a big deal.

[mcv]

I'd say it raised a lot of awareness, which is exactly what protests are for. Protests don't create laws, they raise awareness. Based on that awareness, people vote and change laws.

[virgil_disgr4ce]

> It didn’t do anything meaningful

How do you know? Do you have an alternate timeline of history to compare it to?

[epakai]

I believe protests were working, but progress has since been reversed. Police militarization is controversial. The previous administration made efforts like 'Smart on Crime' and federal laissez-faire approach to marijuana enforcement.

Many of these issues were reversed in an attempt to be tough on crime again with a big push from the AG in 2017. Tensions have been stoked by things like a pardon dealt out to a sheriff who violated a court order relating to racial profiling. I have a hard time believing these acts aren't having their intended effects.

[sdenton4]

You know, whining about blocked intersections is even less compelling during the never ending lockdown...

[pmiller2]

You've got it backwards. Voting and promoting change is what has not worked. Economic damage is likely to be the only thing that's going to persuade the elites to throw the working class a bone. You're witnessing the anger of the masses in its most pure form here.

[cpursley]

> Economic damage

Exactly how is destroying low income housing, small businesses (many of them minority owned) and peoples places of employment going to persuade "the elites"?

[learc83]

I'm not promoting or condoning violence. But Apple shut down their retail stores over this, so it definitely is impacting "the elites" to some extent.

[jeffdavis]

Where is the MLK of 2020? I want to see someone who can go beyond their anger and have a plan and lead.

[michaelt]

You remember a few years back when some athletes took knelt during the national anthem?

And they were told to "shut up and dribble" and the president said they were sons of bitches and should be fired? [1]

There's your peaceful leadership right there.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._national_anthem_protests_...

[ncallaway]

MLK was despised by white America of his time, _because_ of his leadership of protests.

[TuringNYC]

There are many of them. They dont get media coverage. They "miss the cutoff" for debates. The party doesnt give them a chance. Even so called "liberal media" do hit jobs on them.

Then, people who are complacent complain no one is trying.

[krisoft]

So they can be assassinated? Good plan. (sarcasm indicator. It is not a good plan at all.)

[kortilla]

Voting has changed things. Every legislative change comes from your representatives, not some unelected force that only reacts to violence.

You just don’t like the priorities of everyone else so you’re claiming it hasn’t worked.

[TuringNYC]

>> You just don’t like the priorities of everyone else so you’re claiming it hasn’t worked.

That bit is correct. Yes, it does work -- for some. But the masses that are angry are whom it didn't work for. When it starts working for the other 90% people wont be as angry.

[7952]

Polite protests are completely ignored. And if the political system was working for them they would not feel the need to protest.

[learnstats2]

Voting and "promoting" change hasn't worked either.

[BeetleB]

> Was everyone wearing masks and practicing social distancing of at least 6 feet?

Are you suggesting shooting rubber bullets is an appropriate means to enforce social distancing?

[grupthink]

The US is less of a United Monolith and more of a Spaghetticoded States of America. Look out world, we're agile!

[misun78]

Good for you in being somewhere with zero violence in looting, while here in nyc, entire neighborhoods (soho, herald square etc) has been ransacked and cops run over to death. National guard cannot come soon enough to put away these perpetrators in jail.