[ris]

> IIRC Django can also use SQLAlchemy

It's possible to use sqlalchemy with django, but you're basically on your own (don't expect to be able to use django-admin and other pluggable apps etc.)

> it didn't used to be very nice back in the day

Having used both django and sqlalchemy ORMs very heavily, I've got to say that django does what it does extremely well and intuitively. For what the vast majority of webapps need to do, the "obvious" way of constructing the query causes django to do more or less the right thing. sqlalchemy on the other hand I love for other reasons, but am frequently annoyed at how much faffing is required to do the simple things in a concise way.

[true_religion]

One thing you can do is use SQL alchemy, by duplicating code so you will have Django code to handle things you want to do in Django.... typically anything that touches the admin or model forms, but use SQL Alchemy for everything else.

[ris]

Yyyyeah, but you do end up duplicating potentially quite a lot of code, especially if you're following the (IMHO nice) "fat models" approach.

I think a few people have thrown around the idea of creating a frontend to sqlalchemy to allow it to understand django model definitions and QuerySet semantics but I don't think anything's come of it.