[shadowgovt]

> At least not under a libertarian model of governance.

I see the source of our disagreement; I was trained in Locke social contract theory and am talking about the US government (given the context of the topic), which is not crafted on a Libertarian framework (the legislature and the executive arms of the government instantiate the idea of what is and is not lawful; whether they "create" the idea or merely implement some zeitgeist understanding from the public is irrelevant to me).

Your viewpoint functions in a more abstract, universal framework. Carry on.

[syshum]

>> I was trained in Locke social contract theory and am talking about the US government (given the context of the topic), which is not crafted on a Libertarian framework

Actually it was in many ways, and Locke's was a supporter of Natural rights and is the basis for most libertarian philosophy

Locke did not believe it was illegal to murder another man simply because the government decreed such an act to be illegal, Locke believed it was illegal because the man had the natural right to life and no other man has the ethical authority to take that life

Everything I have stated fits nicely in Lockean Philosophy

[shadowgovt]

That may be. Perhaps I don't understand libertarianism enough to evaluate the claim. upon reflection, it wasn't Locke I was thinking of anyway, but Hobbes; "Where there is no common power, there is no law; where no law, no injustice. Force and fraud are in war the two cardinal virtues. Justice and injustice are none of the faculties neither of the body nor mind."

Can you give an example of US government enforcing law not instantiated by the government? I'm having a hard time comprehending what you meant by "Government is simply the body for which we have ordained the authority to punish you for unlawful actions, it is not the body for which we have ordained to create the idea of what is and is not unlawful." Government processes create the laws under which a person may be found in need of punishment.