[nabnob]

Let's not act like the United States was a shining example of freedom and democracy before WWII, either. Slavery, destroying indigenous people and taking their land, followed by oppressive laws targeting black and indigenous people...

Liberal democracy is definitely a step forward from monarchy, but the freedoms it offers have always been built on the oppression of many. It's no surprise that the oppressive arm of imperialism, which has targeted the rest of the world since WWII, would start to turn inwards and target US citizens.

[tossAfterUsing]

> Let's not act like the United States was a shining example of freedom and democracy before WWII, either.

Maybe we don't bother mentioning these very obvious historical circumstances.

Instead, we can talk about what technological solutions exist already, or could exist in the near term, which would obviate these institutions of oppression.

I am very interested in tools like Whatsat[0] and Sphinx[1] which protect communications between participants...

but what about my browsing. Do i just need to migrate all my "real" searches to Tor (already pwnt) or Beaker (insufficient, frankly)?

How can we continue to define ourselves as free persons while we exist among these dark patterns?

0 - https://github.com/joostjager/whatsat 1 - https://sphinx.chat/

[claudeganon]

> Maybe we don't bother mentioning these very obvious historical circumstances. Instead, we can talk about what technological solutions exist already, or could exist in the near term, which would obviate these institutions of oppression.

These have never been solely technical problems, but political, moral, and organizational ones. States can simply make use or development of any technology illegal and bring the full force of its monopoly on violence to bear on those who run afoul of it. That has to be countered outside of just building things.

Ignoring history doesn’t make its lessons irrelevant.

[tossAfterUsing]

having technologists teaching the lessons to themselves is just jerking off... HN has more potential than that.

for everybody else to learn lessons is a great objective, but doesn't need to be the objective among this crowd.

[maerF0x0]

> migrate all my "real" searches to Tor (already pwnt)

Can you please explain for someone not up to speed on the topic?

[wpasc]

Not OP, but Tor uses proxy servers to hide your activity from snoopers as it is routed. Unfortunately, the FBI has seemingly found ways to track down users who used Tor (I think dread pirate Robert's of piratebay is the quintessential example)

[tossAfterUsing]

https://www.theverge.com/2015/11/11/9719098/fbi-reportedly-p...

[tjpnz]

Would it be going too far to suggest that the founding fathers never intended for a full democracy in the first place? It makes for an interesting argument when viewed in the context of the electoral college.

[nabnob]

Yeah, they never intended a full democracy. Initially only white men who owned property could vote (6% of the population when the United States was founded https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_voting_rights_in_t...), so I think that's a fair statement.

All of the rights gained by different oppressed groups (right to vote, labor laws, tenant laws) came through struggle and direct action, not because those in power suddenly decided to grant those rights out of the kindness of their hearts.

[ben_w]

Anecdotally, “it is a republic, not a democracy, by design” is something I hear from people who bring up in conversation that they voted Republican. (Note: I’m not American, so I imagine the sort of person who tells me that isn’t representative of Republican voters).

[kazagistar]

No, it's just historical fact that they feared mob rule and worked to try to keep the uneducated masses out.

[shadowgovt]

Perhaps more accurately, they were of two minds about mob rule.

Jefferson believed in the idealized "happy yeoman farmer;" that common people, allowed to seek their own fate, would make a better government. Virtue (as a quasi-religious concept) dwelt in the heart of the aggregate public.

Adams believed in significant risks letting an uneducated mass of people determine their own fate. He didn't have to dig too far into the history books to find examples of why a government given over to the people tended to devolve into rule by a strongman. Government of a virtuous people demanded an elite who would be dedicated to the cause and educated to do it right.

The government built from people in these two camps of thought was a compromise government intended to tame the catastrophic risk-factors of the excesses of both scenarios.

[wchar_t]

Not to mention how "imbeciles", African Americans, and other "misfits" were forcibly sterilized in the years after 1900.

[Zooper]

It's ongoing, and the US has had cases brought against it as recently as 2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#U.S._.... While the more recent cases are less overtly abject evil, they aren't the activities of what I'd call a free or even humane nation that has any right whatsoever to claim that the spread of its governance is an ethical good.

[dr_dshiv]

People don't get how lucky they are with the idea and mythos of America. I think the world declines when we don't believe in the specific vision of government by the people for the people. Of course, just having the right philosophy isn't enough. We still need to embody it. But we are damn lucky to have such a good founding philosophy and I highly doubt if we could do better today.

[cryptonector]

The U.S. gets over its problems and becomes a better place.

Slavery? -> Civil War, slavery over.

Jim Crow laws? -> Civil Rights protests, the Supreme Court finally realizes what the Constitution really says, and Jim Crow is over.

Prohibition causes gangsterism and mafia? -> the whole country did not get corrupted by it, and eventually the mafia got taken down.

And so on. Maybe not every problem, but there's a lot of big problems that have been overcome. And all the while not falling into various traps. For example, the Great Depression led to the Nazis getting into power in Germany, and Latin America was quite marked by the economic disaster that was the Great Depression, but the U.S. failed to get a Hitler or Perón -- that's huge.

This is made possible by a number of things, some of which are ideas, and some of which are accidents:

  - geography
  - luck: having brilliant founders!
  - a brilliant Constitution that splits power not
    just three ways, but also over N States (currently 50)
  - mutual distrust in the early days of the nation
  - a British background and fresh memories of the
    British civil war

This means that freedom -yes, freedom- has been available to many, and eventually to most/all Americans. The original ideas were made too aspirational by the stain of slavery, yes, but in the end it all worked out decently enough, even if it took time to get there.

This surveillance-state thing? Who knows, we may not overcome it. Or maybe we will. But are there large countries you'd bet will do better at getting over their problems? China? Brazil? Russia? Really, compare to other countries.