[lstodd]

What I say is that _if_ they would have changed their lifestyle _then_ they would not have craved the office experience.

There is nothing shallow about this observation.

If they chose not to it's fine. They just missed a different and, in my opinion, a better experience. Their choice.

I cannot in good faith come up with a type of work that genuinely requires being in an office. Not on a workfloor, not in a lab, not in a conference room - an office.

Please enlighten me.

Social aspects of offices are overrated. Less formal association is better if only because no one is forced into them.

[Cookingboy]

>What I say is that _if_ they would have changed their lifestyle _then_ they would not have craved the office experience.

I can say the same thing about WFH. If you have made the lifestyle adjustment then you wouldn't crave to be working remotely either.

Btw I don't know what kind of lifestyle adjust you were thinking about that can magically change someone's personality or family situation.

>If they chose not to it's fine. They just missed a different and, in my opinion, a better experience. Their choice.

Exactly, it is your opinion, but not a universal fact.

>I cannot in good faith come up with a type of work that genuinely requires being in an office.

Just like how you prefer WFH even when your job doesn't require you to work from home, a lot of people can prefer to work at an office even though it's not required.

>Social aspects of offices are overrated. Less formal association is better if only because no one is forced into them.

For you, maybe. I find my social interaction at office to be neither overrated nor forced.

[partyboat1586]

Your work buddys today will be gone tomorrow. Most work relationships are shallow and transitory. If that's your thing because you're extroverted then great but a lot of people in tech are more ambiverted or introverted, they value deeper more meaningful relationships.

What I see a lot is introverted or ambiverted people tricked into believing their work buddies will call after they leave the company. Tricked into spending time on this shallowness outside of work hours + commute time over spending time with the people in their lives that really matter and will be there for them in darker times.

Sure there are a minority of extroverted people who want to be in the office because they want social time all the time, shallow or not. There are also parents who want some time away from home. On the other hand there are introverted people who want to be in the office because that's the only place they know how to get their social need filled anymore even though it's not truly fulfilling.

[filmgirlcw]

> What I see a lot is introverted or ambiverted people tricked into believing their work buddies will call after they leave the company. Tricked into spending time on this shallowness outside of work hours + commute time over spending time with the people in their lives that really matter and will be there for them in darker times.

I’m sorry you’ve apparently had bad experiences (and I’m trying really hard to be charitable here and not make some sort of dig about how you clearly struggle to make friends and choose to cover it up by asserting that “most” work relationships are shallow and transitory and that people without social skills really just seek out “deeper” and “more meaningful relationship” — whoops, I failed), but this is absolute bullshit.

Most relationships are based, at least in part, by proximity. With co-workers, the initial bond is usually the work itself and the fact that you see each other frequently. The same is true for the people you get to know in primary/secondary school or in college/university. Even online, relationships are often based on being active on the same platforms — proximity.

Obviously there are plenty of people you can get to know and have good interactions with when you’re around each other that will disappear when you aren’t anymore — but how do those “deeper, more meaningful” relationships form? It takes effort from both parties.

Adults spend a significant portion of their lives working. To claim that the relationships people form at work are somehow less real or less important — just because someone you used to work with didn’t respond to your texts or agree to join your MLM, is beyond insipid.

This is anecdotal but by no means unique: the people I talk to most on a daily basis — the people I trust and rely on the most — are largely current or former co-workers. I have built long-lasting friendships and relationships with my co-workers, past and present.

Yes, it’s absolutely possible to build relationships with co-workers without being in the office (the team I’ve worked on for 3 years has been distributed, with most people not having any office to report to), but it’s also a very valid advantage of having an actual office to work from. As remote-first as my team is, the people I’m closest with are people I’ve spent at least some time with in person — people I’ve traveled with or bonded with at off-sites.

For me, being able to physically spend time with my co-workers is hugely important. It doesn’t need to be every day. But a few times a year makes a huge difference in building trust and a rapport that can be more effective at actually getting work done — whether we’re coworkers, work-friends, or form a long-lasting relationship that transcends who signs our paycheck.

[partyboat1586]

I'm not taking about myself. I don't have any trouble making friends and I'm not introverted. Also using that as a jab is... well we will get to that.

I'm talking for people I've known who were in this situation because they won't talk about it themselves... Because they are introverted they are only going to talk about it with people they are close to. I've been close with a lot of introverted people because I love getting to know people and I care about them.

You seem to think that introverted people are not as good as everyone else because they struggle to make friends. That is fucked up. That is the kind of shit they deal with all the time and you wonder why so many introverts have social anxiety.

I never said all work relationships are shallow and I'm not devaluing shallow relationships either. I'm saying shallow relationships have less value for introverted people and it takes social energy for them to participate in these relationships that could be better spent elsewhere.

I personally love being in an office where I can spend time with my co workers. I go to the social events, I spend time with them outside of work. Because I have more social energy than introverted people and I don't care that I won't see most of these people in a few years.

I personally think the ideal situation for an introvert is a long term job working at a small company with the same people. Unfortunately that's hard to come by. Most introverted people would be better off with remote work because they can then live in the same city as their close friends and don't have to expend so much social energy just to get a paycheck.

[filmgirlcw]

> You seem to think that introverted people are not as good as everyone else because they struggle to make friends. That is fucked up. That is the kind of shit they deal with all the time and you wonder why so many introverts have social anxiety.

No, that’s absolutely not what I said or even insinuated. To be very clear, there is absolutely no value judgment on being an introvert or an extrovert. Instead, I think people who undermine and write-off people who appreciate being around others as superficial and “surface” (like you have repeatedly), are assholes trying to overcompensate for something. You don’t know me and I don’t know you. I’m not a classic extrovert. I’m definitely comfortable around people and probably come across as a typical extrovert, but I’m perfectly happy being alone and had to work extremely hard as a child to be be more comfortable around others. And I’ve had diagnosed anxiety (sometimes so crippling I couldn’t pick up the phone and call to order pizza and at times couldn’t even leave my house), since I was 6 years old — so you can fuck right off with the insinuation that only introverts have social anxiety or that they are even remotely linked. They aren’t. So stop with the straw man arguments.

Remote or in-person, if you want to build an actual friendship with someone — whether they are a coworker or not — it takes work on both sides. Most of the people we call “friends” at various times in our lives will not be around for prolonged periods of time — just as most of us won’t be on beck and call to a person they went to school with 20 years ago and only interact with as much as liking the occasional Facebook post. That has absolutely nothing to do with remote work.

Those “close friends” you speak of for introverts — a not insignificant portion of those friendships were absolutely built at work.

You’re the one putting negative value judgments on those who dare opine that they enjoy having an office because they like to engage with others by undermining and dismissing their relationships — not me.

[partyboat1586]

>You’re the one putting negative value judgments on those who dare opine that they enjoy having an office because they like to engage with others by undermining and dismissing their relationships — not me.

I specifically said I'm in the camp of wanting to work in an office and enjoying those connections and relationships. Did you miss that part? What am I missing here?

I don't want to devalue extroverted people! I'm not trying to attack you or anyone else for liking to make more connections with people.

I think I must have triggered you with the word 'shallow' lots of extroverted people (including me in the past) get triggered by that word because they know they are not shallow on the inside. I'm not calling you or other extroverted people shallow or superficial because you like to spend time around people. I should know because people have accused me of the same. What I am saying is that on average extroverted people have more friends and acquaintances than introverted people and spend more time with people they don't know that well. And most importantly that extroverted people have the energy to do that and derive energy from that.

Introverted people loose energy by spending time around people they are not close to. Building relationships requires more energy for them. This is why remote working because work does consist of many shallow (can't think of another way to put it) relationships and that is draining on an introverted person if those relationships don't have a long term trajectory.

I'm also not saying that extroverted people can't have social anxiety. They can. 100% and it can be even worse.

What I am saying is the reason that introverts have more social anxiety on average is because people judge them for being introverted. Because they have less of themselves to give. It sounded very much like that was what you were doing in your previous post by first assuming I was introverted and then directly attacking me for 'strugling to make friends'. A trait of many introverted people. I fail to see how that is not a value judgement against introverts. It came across as very cruel and mocking.

[Cookingboy]

>Your work buddys today will be gone tomorrow

Nope, still friends with many of them after years I've left the company.

>If that's your thing because you're extroverted then great but a lot of people in tech are more ambiverted or introverted, they value deeper more meaningful relationships.

I've cultivated deep and meaningful relationships through work, just like I did it through school as well.

It sounds like you are projecting your person experience onto everyone to be honest. I'm sorry that you have not established any real and meaningful relationships through work, but the same isn't true for many of us.

[partyboat1586]

I have established real meaningful relationships through work as I'm sure most people do. What I'm saying is that many of your relationships at work will still be shallow even if a few are not. That is draining for introverts who also can't sustain the same number of relationships at once.

[tremguy]

I've established a significant portion of my important friendships through work.

I think it happens more easily in smaller companies for sure. Big corporations seem more hollow.

[unsignedint]

I don't know how you would define yourself, but my theory is more introverted you are more impacts there are to the shift to WFH. (I find myself introverted and I feel this will impact me in long run...)

At work, it is often a routine, that you talk to people, maybe befriending some of the frequent encounters. That dynamic is reduced if not lost, with WFH.

Extroverted people actively pursue social activities outside of the work, but if you are not, then it is possible work could be only opportunity you are speaking with people outside of you circle.

[saurik]

> family situation

If you have a family, and you are trying to escape them to go to an office or be alone in transit for hours commuting every day (which is simply time lost from your life), something might be wrong with your relationships and you should spend some time fixing that (but like, yeah: if you are essentially feeling trapped or something because you hate your family, I guess it makes sense to do anything you can to avoid them :/).

[take_a_breath]

The discussion on this site has really deteriorated. Lots of people have kids or they have spouses who also work-from-home. That can make it significantly harder to find the space and environment to work in the home.

[staticassertion]

I can't come up with work that requires being in an office, other than perhaps whiteboarding out ideas.

But my first few years as an engineer, I loved going into the office. We played ping pong, we drank, we socialized, played games. There were even free snacks! Pretty good ones. Maybe for a lot of engineers that all feels silly, but I'd never thought I'd have a job that cool.

You can call that all "bullshit perks" or whatever, but it made the start of my career so motivating and fun.

I work fulltime remote now. I'm the CEO of a company, and we're fully remote. It has huge advantages, but I wouldn't trade that first office experience for anything.

[take_a_breath]

==Social aspects of offices are overrated. Less formal association is better if only because no one is forced into them.==

Do you have any data or research to back up this assertion? How is it rated today, how should it be rated instead?

[paulcole]

> Social aspects of offices are overrated.

This might be true for you but it’s not true for everyone.