[wenc]

I've been trawling subreddits to get a ground-level view of common narratives that we hold on to but have never thought to collect data on.

For instance, there's a common and oft-repeated notion that food delivery apps are screwing over drivers, not just restaurants. So I've been reading the Couriersofreddit sub to get the story from the horses' mouths:

https://www.reddit.com/r/couriersofreddit/

It turns you can make quite a bit driving for GH/UE (well in some geographies), so much so that a $15/hr job with benefits is unattractive.

https://www.reddit.com/r/couriersofreddit/comments/gkmuc4/wo...

I want to work towards a just world, but I believe the first step is to really understand the system of incentives and what is actually happening on the ground, as opposed to simply taking in oversimplified media narratives.

Subreddits are watering holes for folks in the field. I think their unvarnished perspectives are interesting data points (albeit skewed towards a Reddit-centric demographic).

[dyslexit]

I'm very weary of resistor self-reported "data points". They don't often reflect real life for most people, or worse, don't even reflect really even for the commentor. I seriously doubt the person saying he makes $35-$40 an hour doing uber eats is any sort of real average even for him. On top of that a thread like that is more motivating to respond to for people who want to give a "fuck you" to Amazon or who want to brag about their profits than it is for the average driver.

[wenc]

I'm with you about not drawing firm conclusions from potentially biased anecdata from that one post. Also we don't know if that number is gross or net.

That said, I have been reading this sub daily for the past 2 months now and yes there's variability but in general, most agree the work is paying (check out the sub's history in the last 2 months).

It sounds like customers are tipping better, traffic is reduced so trips are shorter, gas is cheaper, parking is more abundant, and order volumes are up. These conditions are temporary and are not sustainable in the long term of course, but it's worth seeing the situation for what it is right now. It sounds like it is possible to do well in these times.

The sub is a window into what folks (admittedly a biased sample) are actually experiencing, as opposed to theoretical conjecture based on our (sometimes disconnected to reality or outdated) priors, etc.

In my line of work, I often overhear stuff from field service people, and it's always fascinating to me how different reality is from what say, software engineers are thinking. The discrepancy between "systems as found" and "systems as imagined" is interesting to me is all.

That's just one subreddit. There are other watering holes.

[mycall]

Software engineers should know what they are trying to achieve but don't pigeonhole their common sense. Having many channels of input, not to mention interviews and sometimes interrogations in subreddits, creates more signal from the noise and order from the chaos.

[dclusin]

In the rare occasions I take an Uber I always ask about the economics of it. From my anecdata it seems like most have never done any modeling of depreciation or maintenance cost forecasting, even extremely basic like miles until major service required and how much it would cost. At most they factor in the monthly oil change, if they even do that.

Maybe some enterprising person on here could make a slick web app to help people estimate depreciation and maintenance costs, with a user interface that people with a high school diploma could understand.

[cskinner]

Our local motoring association (RACV in Victoria, Australia) provides a car running cost calculator, including precomputed values for common models organised by category. Their methodology seems pretty solid.

https://www.racv.com.au/on-the-road/buying-a-car/car-running...

[mrfusion]

Mmm said “if you wanted to build a business model around people not understanding depreciation, Uber would be it. “

[Jommi]

Well that's the thing. They just want to drive people and earn money. Uber made that super super easy.

[foodbringertw]

I'm not going to drop in here and say, "I did that kind of delivery gigging for two and a half years, AMA", but I did, in fact do that kind of delivery gigging for two and a half years and can vouch for those numbers. I made thousands of deliveries. I quit my desk job (making >$15/hr, but still not great) with the plan being specifically for the delivery gigging to be my main (and as it turned out, only) source of income. I'm no longer doing it, but I don't regret the decision in the least, and would relive it all gladly.

- Tips had very little to do with it, and I reported all my tips as taxable income, even cash tips. It was not unheard of to go a week or so without receiving any tips. When asked (e.g. by a friend who used the service) whether people should be tipping the drivers, I always said, "Don't." Having said that, tips were welcome and rarely refused—only on a few occasions when some wanted me to "hang on a sec" so they could get me something, where the running calculus suggested that it would be better for me to leave instead so I could move on ASAP.

- The gigging companies have always insisted that drivers are contractors and not employees, and I made out by embracing that. Every delivery was treated as a job offer to be decided based on estimated cost and return. I made judicious use of my ability to not accept orders, keep blacklists of businesses when they or their customers were known to be high cost/low reward, and even walking out of many businesses empty handed after having accepted an order and arriving only to find that they didn't have their act together, usually in regard to having the food ready in a reasonable about of time; eating the sunk costs was usually the favorable option compared to holding out for an answer to see if this program halts.

- My rating was usually around 97% at any given time, but sometimes it would go as low as 94% (92%?). Bending myself out of shape just to make sure the last few percent don't slip away and trying to satisfy everyone wasn't worth it (and likely futile). I told businesses and customers on more than one occasion to go fuck themselves while letting them know that the deal is off. I should have done it more.

- I got a fair bit of free food, but not as much an ordinary pizza delivery driver would. Someone once butt-dialed a $150 to $200 order from a (so-so) Mediterranean restaurant while stoned, and when I showed up with their order they said they'd already contacted the service/restaurant and requested that it be sent back and the order be canceled. I ate leftover Mediterranean takeout for the next week. When people don't show up or answer the door to receive their order, it's yours to dispose of after 5 to 10 minutes (depending on whatever the service's A/B testing says they should set the timer to, I guess). Generally, I didn't feel that it was worth it and would have preferred to make the delivery as quickly as possible.

As with everything, details matter. I can't claim that any given person would be able to repeat my success. Sturgeon's Law applies. 90% of the labor efforts of working adults seems to be not very good. That ratio at least jibes with what I've observed of rideshare drivers when I've been in the backseat. When I've talked to my rideshare drivers, I thought it was strange that almost no one was also doing deliveries or interested in it in the least. People, generally, aren't very good or thoughtful and wouldn't do well, and nobody really wants to work hard.

I worked hard. Everything that I did while I was online was focused on maximizing my returns. I know my city well and how to get around it. I know which areas to hang out in so I can get the offers from the good businesses. I know when to call it a night instead of holding out "until I make X hundred dollars" or "put in X hours", as I've heard some of my rideshare drivers explain. I know what the mind of a developer working in an environment rooted on a the SV startup mindset and how analytics might be used against me.

It's okay to be skeptical if you find it hard to believe, but this is all really just another case of "selling onions on the internet".

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19728132

Caveats are that I always worked nights, usually 7 nights a week, and the total hours were less than a full work week you'd get from scheduled shifts at the office. A typical week involved 7 days of me waking up sometime between 6:00 to 9:00 AM, putting in 30 to 50 hours sitting behind my desk at home working on personal projects or reading HN or papers or something else that I found intellectually gratifying, stopping mid-day for lunch with no definite bounds, jumping in the shower around 6:00 to 6:30 PM (right after or during my period of highest productivity for the day that popped up around 5:00 PM for some reason), and then shooting to be out the door around 6:45 or 7:15 PM. There was no commute. Work was the commute. I'd stop for groceries most days while out before wrapping up deliveries and come home 9:30 PM to 1:00 AM and have half a bottle of wine and dinner and cookies and watch a movie or two, and then knock off and go to bed. Having no family and a car that I owned and that I did all the maintenance on and was a reliable workhorse are a big part of what made it possible.

[Jommi]

Thanks for this! So... How much did you make on average? :-)

[foodbringertw]

The last week that I worked a "full-ish" week (over a year ago, before it stopped being my main source of income) was just under $750 for 21 hours of online time. I worked 6 days that week. >$30/hr was typical around that time. When I started doing it, <$20/hr was a bad day and $25 to $27/hr was a good day. AFAIK I didn't break $30/hr (even once) until over two years into it, but it then became a regular thing.

[TwoBit]

I agree, though on the other hand reddit posters are notorious for being angry haters of anybody that has more than them, especially corporations, and greatly over-represent perceived negative aspects of them.

[Jommi]

You have to understand that gig economy has huge outliers on both sides of the curve. Some people work 12h shifts on this, and rack up all kinds of bonuses.

[wavepruner]

I can verify that driving for Uber can be very profitable if you find the right niche and only work during busy hours. My city has a huge restaurant & bar scene and when you hit the right times $20-30 profit is not very difficult. That's after maintenance, fuel, and depreciation costs. You can make even more if you are an entertaining driver and tell great stories (tips!!).

Restaurant delivery driving is a less than minimum wage endeavor in my city the last time I tried it. A lot of that has to do with growing pains: the restaurants don't have the order ready in time, and you usually have to drive across the city to do a pickup because volume is low. Regular Uber was also like this in the early days until volume picked up.

Of course, with COVID, both Uber and Uber Eats is barely worth doing. I hear grocery delivery is where it's at now.

[jfk13]

I wonder about people who say things like "I average between $35-40 an hour" doing food-delivery gigs. How many hours per day is that level of work available?

[antonf]

I was delivering food via DoorDash before COVID-19 (using $5k 300cc motorcycle, so my gas expenses and depreciation were low), and it wasn't hard to hit $40/h during lunch or dinner delivering food in San Mateo, CA. Sometimes, when restaurants were slow I made about $20/h (I stopped taking orders from Mendocino Farms and Sweet Basil for that reason).

I also tried to deliver food in Palo Alto, but most of the orders were coming from Stanford Shopping Center were it was hard to find parking, and then it was hard to find the restaurant, and on top of that the restaurants were pretty slow to prepare the orders.

The factors that may contribute to higher income through delivery apps during COVID-19:

- without regular visitors, restaurants are probably faster to prepare food for delivery

- with more customers there are more chances for delivery app to batch orders

- with less traffic and cheaper gas, the expenses per delivery are lower

[Jommi]

It's the paradox that has been in popular debate since "Uber can't make profit" narrative got started 5 years ago.

It's absolutely bonkers, and even smart people join in on this fallacy. A consumer complaining about Uber not paying their drivers well is usually the same one that's choosing their ride based on what's cheapest.

[abdullahkhalids]

My problem with Uber is not the absolute amount that drivers get paid, but the percentage of my money that ends up in their pocket. While I think Uber provides a valuable service, it does not provide a service that is 25% or more of the ride. Uber also locks a lot of potential income in the form of bonuses (do X rides in 1 week), to force a lot of drivers to work ungodly hours in order to meet those targets.

[Jommi]

25% is just their standard, it can change alot. And it does not account for those bonuses you mention.

I'm not sure why you you're saying bonuses are a bad thing? People get paid extra to fulfill metrics?

[abdullahkhalids]

So talking to drivers, this is my understanding. When Uber started in my country/city a few years ago, drivers could earn X/month if they drove for 8-9 hours a day. Moreover, it was a smooth gradient, so some weeks they could work less and their take home would only go down linearly.

Over the years, the bonus system was implemented. Now, if they drive for 8-9 hours their take home is like half of X/2. Instead they have to drive 12 hours a day and do at least Y rides in the week, to be eligible for roughly a X/2 bonus so their total take home is X.

So, I meet so many drivers who seem super stressed and tired. When asked they say, it is the end of the week for them and they need to complete another 3 rides for the bonus, but they have already been driving for 15 hours, and only have 2 hours to complete the remaining 3 rides.

Its exploitation at its finest.

[Jommi]

You mean that at the start they paid drivers a lot, because there weren't that many, and now that there are lots of drivers available, they reduced the pay?

Sounds like supply and demand working as it should to me.

If you want a job where you can work when you want, this is what happens. You don't have a "off" switch. This is not unique to Uber.

[screye]

> well in some geographies

That's the thing about service based income. You can't institute any protections in place, because the answer to everything is 'it depends'.

Instituting a minimum wage requirement for waiters shouldn't be stopped because some waiters make a whole lot more than minimum wage.

Same applies to delivery services. The culture, frequency and bills of each locality vary massively.

[mrfusion]

Really cool idea! Any more gems you can share? Maybe this is a good way to get ideas for a saas too?

[wenc]

Not sure about SaaS ideas, but maybe hang out at water holes on topics you're interested in? There's usually a subreddit for even very esoteric interests. There's one called r/onebag where people discuss how to pack efficiently for travel -- I was interested in this pre-shutdown when I did a lot of business travel. Now, not so much.

[sfashset]

I'd love to hear about a few more of these "watering holes", if you're so inclined.