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by marcosdumay 2233 days ago
Hum... The Blub parable is really clever because it surfaces the very real problem that a programmer that don't know a language can not predict the benefits or problems of using that language.

I don't see how people (you are the 3rd I see here) get the impression it's a Lisp-only comparison. PG very clearly says he has no idea what language should be on top, and even if there is a top at all. And even if he didn't, that would just make him a practical example of the paradox, and wouldn't make the idea any less valid.
1 comments
goto11 2233 days ago
In context (http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html) he specifically states that he think Lisp is at the top of the power continuum. The point of the Blup-parable is to explain why Lisp isn't that popular when it is so amazing.
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marcosdumay 2233 days ago
Ok, after reading it again, by "very clear" I was overstating it, but there is this note:

> [4] Note to nerds: or possibly a lattice, narrowing toward the top; it's not the shape that matters here but the idea that there is at least a partial order.

And in no place he says Lisp is the end-all best language. At most he compares it with other languages his competitors used on the context of Viaweb, what on the bottom of the article means C++, Java, Perl and Python.

He indeed goes on to argue that any language more powerful than Lisp would be Lisp, because macros work that way. If you don't take notice that he is simplifying things into a power continuum to make a point, that can mislead you into the message that Lisp is the most powerful language. But he puts some effort into making the message language agnostic.

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int_19h 2233 days ago
Is Forth Lisp? Given that you can control the reader, everything is possible syntactically, and semantics is entirely what you make it.
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marcosdumay 2232 days ago
I would say it fits his description (but well, I'm also quick to dismiss it all because ergonomics matter), so it's at least equivalent in power. I have no idea what he would say, I imagine a serious lisper would be offended by the suggestion (because, well, ergonomics matter), but would take a while to even understand why.
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int_19h 2231 days ago
> I imagine a serious lisper would be offended by the suggestion (because, well, ergonomics matter)

Curiously, it did come up in the context of ergonomics in another discussion thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23178953

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