[hactually]

Getting getting getting, every time I head about how Golang is spanking other languages I see the "BUT MUH JAVA IS GETTING X IN Y $MONTHS".

If you really can predict the future please tell me lotto numbers rather than being abrasive.

[apta]

The irony is that golang was created to replace C++ at Google, yet it didn't even make a dent in its usage for serious products. C++ and Java remain the heavy lifters there, as well as at other major establishments, precisely because of reasons like performance and (on the JVM) monitoring. golang ended up being more of a Python replacement.

[wahern]

Go was never intended to replace C++. It was aimed at a very specific target: engineers, especially junior engineers, writing function-as-a-service software. Thread-based concurrency (as in logical thread of execution, not "kernel threads") with message-based synchronization, structural typing, and static compilation were their answers to what in their experience were the biggest impediments to writing good network software that could scale reasonably well using the most natural programming approach.

All of the original creators were clearly of the "best tool for the job, even if you have to build it from scratch" persuasion. How many different languages and programming constructs can you find on Unix or Plan 9? The notion of centralizing all development around a single all-purpose language, a la C++ or Java, is anathema to their stated engineering principles and the opposite of the design elements of the many computing environments they spent their careers designing and using.

One can quite easily disagree with their design choices and tradeoffs. I find static compilation short-sighted. But I do appreciate how it fits into their overall approach; and in that way I find static compilation less short-sighted in Go than in Rust. Some aspects of goroutines are problematic. Hassles with dealing with timeouts exposed flaws in their scheduling and message passing abstractions. But those flaws are in the details, not the fundamental model; and the better way to implement those details is more difficult to determine. (I've had to wrestle with such questions myself as I've written multiple async I/O libraries and frameworks. If Go had come out 10 years earlier my entire career trajectory may have been different.)

FWIW, I don't write any Go software. I admire it from a distance, the same way I admire C++, Rust, and Java[1], while I slave away in C and several other languages. Though, there's an honesty and clarity in Go that is lacking in other languages, precisely because Go isn't trying to be an all-purpose language, and because the authors have an understanding of (and deliberately leverage) the interplay between design goals and implementation constraints that can only come with having designed and implemented umpteen different languages before.

[1] I did have a short tryst with Java a long time ago, but it actually ended up driving me into the arms of C. Not because of the language, but because of the ecosystem--licensing, tooling, interop, etc, was an extremely poor fit for Linux, and in many ways still is.

[apta]

> Go was never intended to replace C++

As per the creators of the language who claimed that they got the idea of writing a new language while waiting for C++ to compile, it was. You can read up about this from them, they were quite clear about it. They even expressed surprise as to why they didn't get the migration of C++ programmers they were anticipating to golang, but instead got Python programmers.

It's not like the lack of green threads stopped people from writing highly concurrent code. Libraries like Vertx, Reactivex, and Akka have existed for a while now. Also, all major platforms have a notion of green threads/coroutines (Java is getting the former and C++ is getting the latter). This was practically the only thing golang had going for it, and once they're implemented for those platforms, it's hard to make a case for golang given it's bad design decisions.

> Hassles with dealing with timeouts exposed flaws in their scheduling and message passing abstractions.

That's a good point, which is why Java's green thread implementation is superior to golang's. Timeouts and cancellations are designed in from the start, as well as hierarchies of green threads (similar to Erlang's).

Again, it just show's that golang does the minimum, and pushes complexity onto the user under the guise of simple language design.

> licensing, tooling, interop, etc, was an extremely poor fit for Linux, and in many ways still is.

The JVM is open source and has been for a while now. Could you elaborate on why it's not a good fit for Linux?

[hactually]

> That's a good point, which is why Java's green thread implementation is superior to golang's.

So the future invention of something that doesnt currently exist is going to be better than something that does exist is your argument?

[hactually]

I'm not sure I understand the irony but keen to know what monitoring you are talking about?

[apta]

* https://openjdk.java.net/jeps/328

* https://www.baeldung.com/java-flight-recorder-monitoring

* https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/jmx/overview/javavm....

[hactually]

Those are all focused on the JVM, not Java tho? Go doesn't have as many issues as the JVM on performance nobs to twiddle (a good thing)

If we're comparing language exposed we've got pprof which can profile and generate flamegraphs etc all part of it as standard that blows your argument away IMO [0]

[0] https://golang.org/doc/diagnostics.html

[apta]

The JVM yes, and Java is the platform language, so it is the most efficient language for the JVM, and the one with least impedance mismatch.

golang is not a magical solution that doesn't have problems. It has its fair share. Its gc is subpar for throughput purposes for instance.

pprof is different. JFR provides live streaming events with minimal overhead. Regardless of what language you use, this feature is invaluable. It's not just for performance, but for debugging, monitoring, and tracing.