[vidarh]

> Yes, in German it’s a big deal, roughly the same as saying “Hey dude” instead of “Good morning Mr Smith”.

It's been changing for decades across a lot of languages. I grew up in Norway where these forms were dying out as I was a child (70's/80's) and mostly used to older people, to the point where they're now mostly used sarcastically to imply someone is a pompous ass or to very old people or in very formal situations. But go back another decade or two and it was common.

When I moved to the UK in 2000, even that was a weird shift up for me in formality (being called "sir" in shops, and having people actually use "mister" in front of my last name) compared to Norway.

But by the 90's my French and German teacher had both insisted we learn to use the formal forms but also both told stories about how that would already then sometimes make you seem old and stuffy, and to listen for what others said and if in doubt ask and to roughly assume we could get away with the informal form with our own age group and younger but default to the formal forms for older people just in case.

My own experience has been that most people I've met in Germany on business trips mostly have thought I've been more formal than necessary at first and told me I can use "du", because I've erred on the side of caution, but it's also varied a lot by location and age group and situation. Since I use my German relatively I'd rather start out too formal than misjudge the situation the other direction.

[checkyoursudo]

I've lived in both Germany and currently Sweden. I have asked about the formal address here in Sweden, and the only time someone ever said you might use it is when talking to one of the royal family (while trying to suppress a laugh). Most younger people respond by saying that we don't have a formal-informal distinction here, which in practice is pretty true.

I have a good friend who spent half his childhood in Germany and then moved here (fluent in English, Deutsch, and Svenska). I asked about whether he would use formal or informal when visiting back home in Germany, or when talking to another German using German here in Sweden. Without hesitating, he said he always uses formal.

I have another German friend, who has been here only for about a year so far, of whom I asked the same: "Definitely I would use informal with any German here."

When I was in Germany, I could easily get away with using informal with anyone, because as clearly a foreigner with only moderate language skills, one can be forgiven many faux pas.

Interestingly, my spouse who is a fluent German speaker but also not native always falls into using formal address. She is quite often reprimanded for being too formal in situations that do not call for it. But that formal training was really rigorously applied, so she cannot help it. Even with our close friends sometimes.

W.r.t. my German-Swede friend, after we talked about it, he postulated that the reason he always defaults to formal is that he left Germany as a child, and so he never went through the transitory phase where children start to learn to talk to adults as equals.

[vidarh]

I think the death of the formal forms in Sweden relatively closely mirrored the changes in Norwegian. In Scandinavia I feel it was in part at least hastened by the post-war political landscape where the strength of the workers movement meant there was a big push towards a more egalitarian society in general, and that was carried over into language reforms.

I think the notion of using the formal forms only when talking to the royal family is close to how it would be in Norwegian too. In written language it retains every so slightly more use, but then too the only times it would be used non-sarcastically would be in something like e.g. an invite to something very formal. E.g. if I received an invite to a black tie event, then maybe it wouldn't be out of place. It'd still feel old fashioned, but then sometimes that is the goal.

> But that formal training was really rigorously applied, so she cannot help it. Even with our close friends sometimes.

I think that's the case for a lot of people who learned these languages some time ago - my teachers knew there was a transition happening, but would rather have us come across as too formal or polite than insult someone, especially as the focus was on learning these languages for business rather than for personal use, and it's really hard to get used to changing those things for languages you don't use every day in particular.

[sideshowb]

Interesting how currently the formal forms appear to be dying out, but back when English went through the same process it was the informal form ("thee/thou") that died.

[ginko]

Austrian living in Norway here. The Sie/du thing has gotten less strict, but there's still a lot of social situations where starting out with a du would be quite awkward. It's usually fine among colleagues (esp. in university and modern IT companies), but wherever there's a more stratified hierarchy(pretty much all service sector interactions for instance) it's always a good idea to stick with Sie.

[rsynnott]

Interestingly, English went the other direction; "you" is the old _formal_ form (the informal was "thou").

[phaer]

> and mostly used to older people, to the point where they're now mostly used sarcastically to imply someone is a pompous ass or to very old people or in very formal situations.

I'd say that sounds pretty similar to how it's used among German speakers, at least those who are 30 or younger.