[wintermutestwin]

"many purists argue that the sound of analog pedals can not be replaced by their digital counterparts."

Truly effective modelling of analog pedals, tube amps and guitar cabs has been around for years and is way more cost effective from the bedroom to touring bands.

The "purists" are hipsters who value the rarity of some pedals, massive pedalboards and their tube amps. I'm not knocking them - I understand why there is a nostalgia factor and tweaking dials is cool. As a computer guy though, I much prefer the ability to make things like this in my bedroom: https://i.imgur.com/OqMoBxz.png And when I want to tweak a dial, I program an expression foot controller to tweak any parameter (or multiple).

All that said, great to be looking at modelling techniques...

[selykg]

I am by no means a musician or an experienced one at that. I tinker and enjoy playing and learning. But I have limited experience overall.

My personal experience with electronic tools is the lack of feel. Can I make music with digital tools like AxeFX and similar? Absofreakinglutely. No doubt about it.

But those digital tools feel VERY different to me than the real thing. I'm not just talking about a speaker moving air, though that's certainly part of it. My tube amp simply responds differently than any digital model of a similar amp.

I find tools like the Kemper to be amazing, but they're just a snapshot of an amp in a particular configuration in a particular room.

From a technical standpoint, all this modeling stuff is super cool. But it doesn't feel the same at the end of the day and this is a personal opinion and preference on my part.

I look forward to the day that I can get an amp in a pedal (like the Strymon Iridium) and it behaves the same as the real amp. I think Fender's Deluxe Reverb (Tonemaster model) is as close as it has ever gotten, but it very specifically emulates a single amp and does so within a real amp cabinet rather than pushing it out to an audio interface.

Anyway, anything that gets people playing guitar is, in my opinion, a great thing. We live in a golden age of guitar equipment. I don't think it can honestly get much better than it is right now. It's an amazing time to be a guitar player and incredible options are available at amazing prices.

[melq]

>My tube amp simply responds differently than any digital model of a similar amp.

Can you expand on this a bit? Curious what you mean by responds and what the difference is.

[selykg]

Sorry, bit late here. I generally play my amp on the edge of breakup. So the idea, for those not familiar, is that when the guitar is played softly you get clean tone, played with a bit more aggression and you get breakup, or distortion but not a ton of it. Think like a blues tone, where you get just a little bit of fuzz/grit.

The feeling of this is significantly different in almost every emulated/simulated/modeled amp than reality. They can be close, but the "feel" of it on the guitar side is often quite different.

Generally speaking, I feel like I have more control over the sound and how it plays with a real tube amp over a modeled amp.

Does that help? I approached this as if you aren't a guitarist, but if you are, sorry for the boring bits that you already probably know.

[melq]

Yah that makes a lot of sense. I am a guitarist buy 90%+ of the time I play acoustic.

[wintermutestwin]

I find that the AxeFX gets enough of the tube amp feel right by modelling amp sag.

It is indeed an amazing time to be a guitar player!

[renaudg]

>Anyway, anything that gets people playing guitar is, in my opinion, a great thing. We live in a golden age of guitar equipment. I don't think it can honestly get much better than it is right now. It's an amazing time to be a guitar player and incredible options are available at amazing prices.

It sure is a great time for guitar equipment, as the digital revolution has made its way there too.

But being a guitar player is also increasingly lonely : https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/lifestyle/the-s...

And it's arguably an opportunity cost for a kid to be pouring so much effort today learning the iconic (but tired) instrument of the boomer generation, when they could be breaking new musical ground instead, mastering Ableton's Push for instance. But to each their own, of course.

[wintermutestwin]

In the late 80s it sure seemed like the guitar was doomed. On one hand there was new wave with its synths and on the other were the guitar "gods" who wanked on with amazing technical precision making amazingly pedantic music. Then in the 90s the guitar and rock was reborn and suddenly cool again. It will come back and it won't be tired anymore. There are so many things that the guitar has barely hinted at in the past that will resurface as innovation. In the meantime, you can learn the guitar AND new tech. Besides, there will always be the draw of impressing a member of the opposite sex at a party by picking up a guitar. You just don't have that with "check out my latest drum programming, etc...

[selykg]

I mean, music is music, play what inspires you.

Calling the guitar a boomer generation instrument is odd.

I suspect Martin would argue they were well ahead of the curve, since they've been creating guitars for over a hundred years.

[mikevm]

I'm a guitar noob, but have been wanting to pick up an electric for ages :).

Quick question - how does that Axe-FX compare to various Amp emulators such as AmpliTube, Line 6 Helix Native, Guitar Rig, Positive Grid BIAS Amp, S-Gear, etc... ?

[wintermutestwin]

As a guitar noob, I'd say that all of those options are great (and yes, I've used them all). If you were more than a noob and had specific needs, I might recommend a specific one to match those needs. I went with the AxeFx because it is insanely tweakable...

[luckydata]

AxeFX is the most true to life, the Helix is quite a bit simpler to use, the Kemper has the best "feel" of every simulator. They achieve very similar results sound-wise, all of them can be used in record production no problem.

IMHO for the bedroom player the Helix is the best solution as it's good enough and significantly cheaper than the other options.

[TrackerFF]

Axe-FX has good hardware, I've owned every unit since the original Axe-FX came out.

If you want to check this out for yourself, try a Line 6 Helix, and then the Helix Native VST with a normal soundcard. For me, there was orders of magnitude in difference. Good modelling boils down to having excellent hardware.

[anodyne33]

In a similar vein, I worked (eg: interned) at a few recording studios in my 20s. Most tracking in both was done to a 2" 24tk analog tape deck and the majority of post and mixing was all done digitally. I don't know what progress has been made in plug-ins in 20 years, I suspect a lot, but at that point there was nothing digitally that came close to the sound of electric guitars overdriven into the tape deck and saturating the tape to an extreme. Now I'm curious if anybody has gotten it right, but there are fewer and fewer studios with 2" tape decks to do a true A/B.

[willis936]

Effective modeling, yes, but not necessarily accurate modeling. The analog circuits are imperfect in many subtle ways, and component level simulation is rare (if it exists at all, I have not seen it). It’s all a bunch of high level approximations that don’t nail the feel to the point of beating blind tests.

It can be done. I don’t know why we aren’t there.

The audio world is halfway to to the alien truther community: the closer a rational outsider looks at it, the crazier they feel. Technically, it’s a trivial field. Yet here we are with snake oil saturation and subpar solutions.

[wintermutestwin]

https://www.fractalaudio.com/iii/

This guy has been doing component level simulation from the beginning. I have one and it is accurate enough to convince some pretty big players to ditch their tube amps.

[playingchanges]

I think what you mean by 'hipsters' is 'professionals'. As someone who's made several records and been in many recording studios, I would challenge you to name a single record that does not utilize an analog signal chain, for mastering at the very least. VST modeling is great when you want a super clear tone and is very popular in certain genres. But definitely not ubiquitous and certainly not superior tech. Digital just don't SLAP like analog.

[maeln]

A lot of band stopped using analogue hardware for sound also because they tend to be way less reliable than their digital counter part. A lot of analog amp, pedals and synth will tend to change their sound due to the analogue hardware aging. Digital stay virtually the same. And the same can be said about weather condition. Change in temperature and humidity affect analogue hardware, not so much digital.

You will have the same sound from gig to gig and a lot of band really value this.

[hashkb]

This is ad hominem. You haven't included any data. You are just as superstitious about your bedroom rig as I am about my basement rig.

[wintermutestwin]

I guess you are technically right, but this part of the discussion is highly subjective. I was merely pointing out that the quoted statement was subjective and I wasn't using "hipster" as a pejorative - I was actually being somewhat sympathetic to their view.

Overall, my goal was to add to this discussion by pointing out the massive progress that has been made and also to show off my supercool signal path in the hopes that it would be inspirational to fellow geeks like me.

[hashkb]

It would have gone over better with me (your average analog hipster) if you'd just mentioned the positive aspects of the thing you like. I'm eagerly awaiting the day when modeling is actually good enough for me; and your (common) attitude (that it is, obviously, and anyone who can't hear it is nostalgic/supersitious/hipster) is one of the reasons I don't give modelers a try more often.

[melq]

It wasn't an ad hominem attack. Ad hominem quite literally refers to an attack against a specific person. Not only was he not attacking a person, but referring to 'hipsters' is not necessarily pejorative.

I believe he was incorrect to call guitar players who use analog equipment hipsters, as using analog equipment is the status quo, not some niche subculture outside of the mainstream.

I would like to respectfully suggest being a little less sensitive, though. Not giving new things a chance because of other people attitudes seems very silly to me.

[hashkb]

Hipster is an insult; do people call themselves hipster? Not usually.

I've tried a lot of modelers. If all I ever hear is that I'm defective for not thinking they're perfect, why would I be open? It feels like a crusade with a side of propaganda. I really do want them to be good.