[mercer]

> Of course people want to be useful and creative. But peoples usefullness and creativeness has to create atlest 2xUBI of taxes (one that goes back to the worker and one that goes to someone who get UBI but doesnt work) + all the other costs.

> If you're capable of doing stuff you like, being creative, liking that work, and creating that much income, why are you not doing it now?

I dunno, it's all speculation of course, but I'd say my 'usefulness' has gone up once I didn't have to bow to my bosses' whims. It's hard to quantify that, of course, but even if I go for a quantifiable measure, I'm probably more of a benefit to society than otherwise: I've been working on various business ideas that could improve the efficiency of other businesses, my volunteering reduced the burden I put on my country's health care system (on account of needing less therapy), and possibly reduced the effect on others around me. The money I make doing 'extra' work, that I wouldn't have to do, has benefitted my younger siblings who in turn might benefit society.

Personally I don't like this kind of thinking though. I'm convinced that a decent chunk of the population is just driven to do and create in a way that is valuable to other parts of the population. Trying to reduce this to 2xUBI is somewhat futile, and honestly not a society I want to actively encourage. In fact, engaging with this thought strikes me as already a bit of a needless capitulation. How much money could we save by reducing the pointless corporate work, military spending, etc, and how does UBI relate to that? At least for a significant experiment I suspect it's not much.

> I consider it quite possible, or at least worth properly exploring, a society that provides in the basic needs regardless of whether you do pointless work for pointless company to allow you to spend your downtime on pointless consumption and entertainment (because no energy for anything else).

>> Problem with this society is, that it also requires people who are working, to cover the cost of the poeple who are not working. Curretnly most countries do that for a very small percentage of unemployed (welfare), and most people in those countries are already complaining about the high taxes. If you raise the taxes on the people left working, and let others live relatively normal lives without working, you'll get less and less of the former and more of the later. Yes, non-workers will create music, art, will travel, write blogs, etc., but none of that generates enough income to cover even their own cost.

I think what I'm driving at is that this 'working' and 'not working' would be redefined. So much work is busiwork. So much 'work' is very tenuously measurably good for society. And, conversely, so much 'work' is not really considered work, but crucial to a functioning society.

In the same way that we (many Western nations) already got rid of having to worry (generally) about some of the most basic needs, UBI is one option to reduce that even further. I think, with the recent decades of insane progress when it comes to automation, that this is possible. And I'd rather see what happens and roll back the changes than just not do it because we can't fully predict the outcome.

[ajsnigrutin]

> I dunno, it's all speculation of course, but I'd say my 'usefulness' has gone up once I didn't have to bow to my bosses' whims. It's hard to quantify that, of course, but even if I go for a quantifiable measure, I'm probably more of a benefit to society than otherwise: I've been working on various business ideas that could improve the efficiency of other businesses, my volunteering reduced the burden I put on my country's health care system (on account of needing less therapy), and possibly reduced the effect on others around me. The money I make doing 'extra' work, that I wouldn't have to do, has benefitted my younger siblings who in turn might benefit society.

Why can't you do that now, by starting your own business and being your own boss?

> Personally I don't like this kind of thinking though. I'm convinced that a decent chunk of the population is just driven to do and create in a way that is valuable to other parts of the population. Trying to reduce this to 2xUBI is somewhat futile, and honestly not a society I want to actively encourage. In fact, engaging with this thought strikes me as already a bit of a needless capitulation. How much money could we save by reducing the pointless corporate work, military spending, etc, and how does UBI relate to that? At least for a significant experiment I suspect it's not much.

We can verify this by observing people who are currently not working and are getting welfare. Somehow, very few of them do so. Some even avoid doing real work (you have to actively look for a job here if you want to receive welfare), by literally coming to interviews and saying that they're there just for the 'stamp' (proof they were there).

> I think what I'm driving at is that this 'working' and 'not working' would be redefined. So much work is busiwork. So much 'work' is very tenuously measurably good for society. And, conversely, so much 'work' is not really considered work, but crucial to a functioning society.

But stuff we deem "crucial" (by our own, individual standards), we're also willing to pay for. Water, food, entertainment, cars, gadget, clothes, vacations, travel, books, music, perfumes, etc. Is something really crucial, if noone wants to pay for that? If someone is willing to pay 100euros for a stinky alcohol-water mix (perfume), and they're not willing to pay for your work, is your work crucial?

> How much money could we save by reducing the pointless corporate work, military spending, etc, and how does UBI relate to that?

Corporations are paying their own money for that work... they'd be the one saving, not you. Military spending can still be lowered, and workers would get to keep more of their own money, why does it have to be given to non-workers? (i'm not talking bout disabled people, etc, i'm talking about able-bodied people, who are able to work, but would choose not to).

[mercer]

>> I dunno, it's all speculation of course, but I'd say my 'usefulness' has gone up once I didn't have to bow to my bosses' whims. It's hard to quantify that, of course, but even if I go for a quantifiable measure, I'm probably more of a benefit to society than otherwise: I've been working on various business ideas that could improve the efficiency of other businesses, my volunteering reduced the burden I put on my country's health care system (on account of needing less therapy), and possibly reduced the effect on others around me. The money I make doing 'extra' work, that I wouldn't have to do, has benefitted my younger siblings who in turn might benefit society.

> Why can't you do that now, by starting your own business and being your own boss?

I can, because I ended up in a situation where I basically have the equivalent of UBI. My point is that it is indeed what I'm doing, and I believe others would too, given the opportunity.

>> Personally I don't like this kind of thinking though. I'm convinced that a decent chunk of the population is just driven to do and create in a way that is valuable to other parts of the population. Trying to reduce this to 2xUBI is somewhat futile, and honestly not a society I want to actively encourage. In fact, engaging with this thought strikes me as already a bit of a needless capitulation. How much money could we save by reducing the pointless corporate work, military spending, etc, and how does UBI relate to that? At least for a significant experiment I suspect it's not much.

> We can verify this by observing people who are currently not working and are getting welfare. Somehow, very few of them do so. Some even avoid doing real work (you have to actively look for a job here if you want to receive welfare), by literally coming to interviews and saying that they're there just for the 'stamp' (proof they were there).

As I said before/elsewhere, I think this is transitional effect. Not only is welfare avoided by those who would be productive anyways, the very stigma and context of welfare can encourage 'doing nothing'. It's a bit like your employer allowing you to work from home: at first, it's quite likely you'll abuse this freedom to not wear pants all day and pretend to work. I truly believe that changing this to a 'default', over time, makes it less common for the majority of people to actively do nothing. People hate doing nothing by nature.

>> I think what I'm driving at is that this 'working' and 'not working' would be redefined. So much work is busiwork. So much 'work' is very tenuously measurably good for society. And, conversely, so much 'work' is not really considered work, but crucial to a functioning society.

> But stuff we deem "crucial" (by our own, individual standards), we're also willing to pay for. Water, food, entertainment, cars, gadget, clothes, vacations, travel, books, music, perfumes, etc. Is something really crucial, if noone wants to pay for that? If someone is willing to pay 100euros for a stinky alcohol-water mix (perfume), and they're not willing to pay for your work, is your work crucial?

Most people don't want to pay for love, and yet here we are. Most people don't want to pay for a (good) family, and here we are.

Reducing crucial to 'what people are willing to pay for' is, even on a cursory inspection, complete bullshit that nobody who isn't extremely dysfunctional actually lives by.

>> How much money could we save by reducing the pointless corporate work, military spending, etc, and how does UBI relate to that?

> Corporations are paying their own money for that work... they'd be the one saving, not you. Military spending can still be lowered, and workers would get to keep more of their own money, why does it have to be given to non-workers? (i'm not talking bout disabled people, etc, i'm talking about able-bodied people, who are able to work, but would choose not to).

I'm saying the difference between workers and non-workers is something we need to re-assess. You're sort of getting there by making a distinction between 'disabled' and 'able-bodied'. Those are not clear distinctions. Is someone with mental health issues that prevent them from being able to deal with workplace stress 'able-bodied'? Or 'disabled'? What if we experimentally try to do away with that distinction and provide UBI and see how things go?