[pvg]

zero need of JS

XHR was invented because without it, Microsoft couldn't make a web-based email client that behaved the way users expected an email client to behave. 20 years ago. I'm not sure you can reasonably claim this stuff is not also strongly driven by the expectations of users and and the desire to meet those expectations.

[TeMPOraL]

I'd like to know which users desired a web-based e-mail client 20 years ago. It is my impression that this kind of software is very much push, not pull - i.e. the idea comes from the vendor, not from customers expressing a demand. Which is not a bad thing in itself (a big part of progress is speculative creation); I just don't like the unspoken assumption that companies do things because customers want them to, it's not always true (almost never in B2C).

[pvg]

I'd like to know which users desired a web-based e-mail client 20 years ago.

Millions of them, by then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlook.com#History

See also Rocketmail.

20 years ago, the market for web-based email was well-established, not some push experiment.

[eitland]

Many of us only used it because it was free/available for everyone and we were students or stuck in another situation were it was the only option. If there was both a webmail interface and imap we chose imap.

Some of us still to this day prefer imap/jmap/exchange if the server support it in a meaningful way.

[mavhc]

those crazy users, not wanting to install, configure and update software, download their emails and make sure their backups work, and just get on with actually reading their emails on whatever computer they wanted

[TeMPOraL]

Those crazy users who then cry, "what do you mean I've lost 10 years of e-mails forever, becuase my daugher commented with an emoji on a YouTube livestream, and Google decided to go nuclear everything associated with that account?".

Cloud services aren't more reliable than owning your data. They're just unreliable in a different way. You need backups anyway.

[mavhc]

That happens less often than people's computers dying.

Which emoji did she use?

[TeMPOraL]

The green one.

I'm of course referring to the Markiplier drama of last year, where a streamer asked people to vote on his stream by typing in red/green emojis. This resulted in hundreds of people losing their Google accounts due to an oversensitive spam filter. The matter fortunately got sorted out (somewhat, not all accounts were unbanned), but essentially only because it involved a fairly well-known youtuber.

https://www.engadget.com/2019-11-10-youtube-reinstates-banne...?

And random automated bans (which happen on all big social networks) are only one fairly common failure mode of cloud services. Smaller services shut down or get acquired, taking your data with them, or they just shutter the products you depended on (and even if you can export data, there often isn't anything you can import that data back into). Governments may randomly make whole populations lose access to service (c.f. Adobe's Creative Suite and trade sanctions on Venezuela, earlier this year). And, of course, no Internet access = no access to service = no access to data.

In general, owning your data makes you vulnerable to physical world problems - floods, fires, etc. Using cloud services makes you vulnerable to relationships between you and third parties, as well as between these third parties themselves.