[Skunkleton]

IMO Linux still has pretty poor graphics drivers, and the whole Wayland thing is in a weird spot right now too. My primary use my my PC is a work machine, for which Linux is very well suited. I also game on my PC. For that, I have tried limiting my self to native Linux games, Wine, directed assigned graphics with a windows VM, and plain old dual booting. In the end I keep end up dual booting. Gaming graphics cards don't work well under Linux. However, I've had great luck with low end workstation graphics cards, especially those running the new AMDGPU driver.

If you are an expert, there has never been a better time to move to Linux. If you are a novice, there still hasn't been a better time, but its also still not for everyone.

[inshadows]

> IMO Linux still has pretty poor graphics drivers

The situation is like this: https://preview.redd.it/79011affulj11.png?width=800&format=p...

nVidia: I've been gaming on nVidia proprietary drivers without any issues. Though most demanding games were CS:GO and The Talos Principle.

AMD: At work I'm on workstation with some 2 years old Radeon and AMDGPU drivers (mainline). No issues so far.

Intel: I'm using it on my laptop. No issues so far.

What poor graphics drivers do you have in mind?

[Skunkleton]

I mean you linked the meme? That pretty well sums things up. Like I said in my original comment, workstation graphics cards tend to do great, as do older graphics cards.

[inshadows]

I've used mix of old and new graphics cards and I have never experienced issues with drivers related to how recent the graphics card was. The few issues I had were always with the driver itself. And I've never used workstation-grade graphics card, always consumer ones.

[nimbius]

not to get too offtopic but performance in Linux for Vulkan routinely beats native windows video performance. https://www.protondb.com/

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=dota2-ma...

at present there are about 6500 working games in Linux that take advantage of advanced 3d graphics. These include the latest Doom, Fallout 76, and Borderlands 3. Im currently running a Radeon RX 470 and playing everything from Aragami to P.A.M.E.L.A. and Wolfenstein New Colossus at 60fps or higher.

[Skunkleton]

Yeah, performance certainly has come a long way. The bigger issues these days are stability and compatibility. Both nouveau and nVidia proprietary are pretty crashy (and not just for me). nVidia proprietary isn't great with wayland. Catalyst is pretty bad. AMDGPU is great, but I haven't really pushed it beyond a low end workstation card. Intel is fine, but intel doesn't offer high end graphics.

[RMPR]

> the whole Wayland thing is in a weird spot right now too

You can still use X though, speaking from experience Nvidia drivers don't work at all on Wayland.

Furthermore this is a great resource which will certainly be useful to OP

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/03/15/linux...

[Skunkleton]

I actually bought a second graphics card for use with linux because I was sick of deciding between slow (nouveau) and crashy (nv proprietary). I have a WX2100 and it has been completely rock solid. I can't use X11 without some as-yet-to-be-discovered workaround because it won't give up on using my nvidia card, even though I have that card attached to vfio-pci. Wayland is solid though.

[AsyncAwait]

> IMO Linux still has pretty poor graphics drivers.

IMO Intel is generally very well supported with the open-source kernel driver and amdgpu is getting there. This feels like a trope that always gets repeated but never updated, kind of like "you need CLI to use Linux".

> the whole Wayland thing is in a weird spot right now too

The whole Wayland thing is already much smoother for many than X11 ever was and it actually takes security seriously. I am running GNOME on Wayland full time since 2018 and by this point there's nothing I miss from X11, any specifics?

[Skunkleton]

> there's nothing I miss from X11, any specifics?

There are plenty of applications that still depend on Xwayland, and the nvidia proprietary can't accelerate these. There are some other weird stability issues related to the nvidia driver as of mid last year at least. Wayland is missing a bunch of features from X, which bothers some people. I personally miss network transparency from X. That said, I do run wayland full time, and have for a few years now. I just can't recommend it without reservations.

I can't comment on catalyst, or AMDGPU on current generation AMD gaming graphics cards. What I can say is that you can pretty much blindly assume that whatever gpu you want to buy will work well under Windows.

> IMO Intel is generally very well supported

I would add AMDGPU to that list as well. Still, AMDGPU is new, and Intel doesn't offer a high end graphics card. nVidia proprietary causes problems, such as those it causes for wayland. I am very happy with my AMDGPU compatible WX2100 for linux, but it is certainly not a good gaming GPU.

[AsyncAwait]

Sure, nvidia is problematic, hence Linuses now famous rant, but that's to be expected, they don't cooperate at all.

I understand it may be the only option for high-end gaming, but in that case one probably doesn't have switchable graphics, which causes the most issues, so X/Xwayland is the one compromise one has to make.

This however does not mean that Linux graphics is a mess in general. I have both Intel and amdgpu machines that work out of the box, no problem. And this does not ever gets asked in relation to macOS, because everyone "knows" nvidia just wasn't a thing there in recent years. So perhaps we should assume nvidia just isn't a thing as well, unless you're willing to put up with crap?

So does Linux and Linux on the desktop work for everybody? No. Does it work as good for a high-end gaming machine as Windows? No. Does Windows work as the most productive fronend/backend/systems OS for programming out there? No. Does Linux? Yeah.

So while they both have their strengths and weaknesses, Linux works perfectly well for a lot of use-cases, the graphics driver situation included.

As for Wayland not being network-transparent, the fact that it worked in X in the way it did was in fact a massive hack and a security hole and while sometimes convenient, I personally didn't need GUI over SSH almost ever, apart from playing around, so I'd take a proper security architecture, like Wayland has, over network transparency.

This is also not a feature supported by Windows/macOS, so not really a point against Linux in my book.

The early complaints, like screenshots etc. re Wayland were all resolved some time ago too.

[Skunkleton]

> X/Xwayland is the one compromise one has to make.

No you don't. You could use Windows.

> So perhaps we should assume nvidia just isn't a thing as well.

Sure, that is what I do. How do you explain that to a novice that is just trying to run linux on their computer for the first time?

Look, I use linux full time for most tasks, both at home and at work. Professionally I am a kernel engineer. I am very pro linux, and pro new linux users. I think that we do linux a disservice by pretending that there aren't issues. The simple fact is that the linux graphics experience is not seamless like it is on other operating systems. We shouldn't pretend that it is just because experts can make it work.

[AsyncAwait]

> No you don't. You could use Windows.

Of course, provided you don't mind the ads, the telemetry, the updates that delete your files [1], this is assuming you're actually interested in Linux.

> How do you explain that to a novice that is just trying to run linux

That perhaps you do look for Linux HW before purchasing and do not install Linux on any old crap?

Look, I could hand somebody a Chromebook and ask them to try how well Windows would run on it. The experience wouldn't be great. Same on a Talos II or some other obviously problematic HW for Windows where Linux fares much better, but it's a pointless game.

Most people don't run into this situation because BestBuy laptops come preinstalled with Windows. If they came with Linux, there'd be a reverse situation.

But with macOS people somehow don't assume they can run it on a random POS HW and indeed know that it's best to get one designed to run macOS.

Why is the standard Linux is evaluated against always different?

Just get a Linux-compatible machine and you're good, that's it. I know as I've done it many times now.

It's not about pretending there aren't issues. But I've realized we're being held back by always trying to snatch this mythical 'new user' with his BestBuy laptop, or someone with a knowingly problematic HW, (unless nVidia cooperates, there's little we could do) and Windows will continue to come preinstalled on the majority of PCs, so a mass exodus isn't happening anytime soon.

What we could do, instead of being this "honest" and just reinforcing the idea that Linux doesn't work, we could be even more frank and just say avoid this vendor, but this and this one is fine.

Reinforcing the idea that Linux is crap because of some shitty corporation that refuses to support it gives too much importance and power to said corporation when they don't deserve it.

1 - https://www.tomsguide.com/news/massive-windows-10-fail-new-u...

[Nursie]

> Gaming graphics cards don't work well under Linux

They work fine, haven't had a problem with them for years, using nvidia cards. Most distros just ship the proprietary drivers now, and those just work.

There just aren't masses of native games. That said, Steam now has a built in version of wine called "Proton" that's worth checking out.