[stiray]

I actually did after I installed windows 8. And never installed windows 10. Dont understand me wrong, linux IS a mess not the kernel but the whole userspace is a catastrophy, from systemd to the networkmanager. I never liked it but I started to use it, not becoase it became better but as windows became so much worse. I would prefer freebsd as on my servers but as most of development is going on on linux it doesnt stand a chance. Which is a pitty.

[II2II]

I have never really understood the "Linux is a mess" argument. While I do agree that it is a mess, it is not as though Windows is any better. The big difference is that the Linux development process is open and the end user is more likely to tinker so a lot of criticism bubbles to the surface. Contrast that to Windows, where there is very little point in discussing how things work under the hood. You may have to know enough about it for setup, maintenance, and troubleshooting. That is about all.

The arguments also ignore some of the great things about Linux. One of the things that I marvel at is how easy it is to setup and maintain a Linux system. Things like software typically being installed and updated through a single source is a tremendous time saver. While many device drivers are lacking specialized features, most hardware will work out of the box. There are also fewer concerns about what is happening behind the scenes. Walkthroughs like this one are fairly common in the Windows world: disable advertising, delay updates, block telemetry, improve performance.

None of this is meant to imply Linux is good and Windows is bad. Both platforms have their benefits and drawbacks. Neither is ideal for everyone. It's all about which trade-offs you're willing to accept.

[stiray]

Just listen to this. I bet you will recognize the speaker.

https://youtu.be/5PmHRSeA2c8?t=474

It is 100% to the point and nothing has changed in 6 years since (and not only on debian), except that the mess is being solved by docker. Which is crazy. And windows is heading into same direction (when I have seen the manifests the first thing I have said was... omg... .dll.1.4.3)

Just additional info, to help you get into my mindset - system level developer for linux AND windows for 25 years.

(anyway, I have thrown tomatoes into directions of two largest fanboy camps, guess what will happen? =/ )

[AsyncAwait]

As someone who uses all 3 OSes to various degrees, the while "mess" thing just strikes me as something that's supposed to be said around Linux and mic drop, as if that in itself meant something.

Linux is often installed on shoddy hardware that Windows no longer runs acceptably on and then people complain why it runs shoddily compared to their new Macbook/DELL XPS that they just purchased.

This very topic shows that Windows is a mess too, there's now been multiple updates that deleted user data as well. Why is that not a mess? Or why is so much more attention paid to the Linux mess? macOS allowed users to log in without a password, leaked encrypted HDD secrets, borked curl & SSH, borked user machines with an update, throttled user machines etc. and that's just from the top of my head. And that's bearing in mind that Apple controls almost all the variables.

[inshadows]

Well, to be fair, these user space components are often judged as catastrophes from the point of view of Linux/UNIX users/admins. In other words, Windows components for same tasks were never scrutinized at this level. Windows users used often scoff at me when I am troubleshooting problems with my Linux boxes. But the fact is, I can troubleshoot and in most cases fix problems with systemd/NetworkManager, whereas when corresponding problems arise on Windows boxes there's really not much you can lean on, because inner workings of these components are not public, so 95% of Google searches result in total crap, and the remaining 5% reveal that design of these components isn't at all that perfect. (NetworkManager equivalent in Windows is big pile of steaming crap.)

So yeah, I don't like design of systemd. But hell, compared to dealing with Windows, it's precious.

[AsyncAwait]

> I don't like the design of systemd

I feel like many who level this charge have unfortunately never really looked into its design or compared it realistically to what came before, because I can tell you that if I am comparing the ability to write a systemd service in a declarative way and having it working with the same set of commands across all major distros, I'll take that over having shoddy quality bash scripts that vary across distros just slightly enough to annoy and that rely on a patchwork of PID files that is very easy to mess up, I am taking systemd any day of the week.

[inshadows]

I did all that and I like unit files and all the rest that you mention. But there are little things here and there that suck.

[AsyncAwait]

Oh sure. But that's the case with all software I can think of. And there was a lot more of these things in SysVinit than systemd.

I am not saying it's perfect. I am just saying it is generally better than what came before.