[88840-8855]

lol, this is nothing new and nothing special. There are some words that just dont go through and messages dont arrive. I lived there and tried it with friends. You literally stand next to each other, some messages arrive, some dont.

For me it is not a big deal - for most Chinese it is not a big deal. Somehow most people who never touched Wechat it seems to be a big deal.

[woutr_be]

You don't think censorship is a big deal? That's exactly the reason why their government gets away with it, because people see it as no big deal.

[hiram112]

But muh private companies...

WeChat is owned by the 'private company' Tencent. And most here think it's perfectly valid when Facebook or Google censor things they don't like. I'm sure you think that Google is a real private company, while Tencent is not. But the difference isn't really all that valid anymore; the US government has backdoors and special access to our tech behemoths, just like the Chinese do for their tech companies.

Maybe it's not such a good idea to cheer for Google, Facebook, and the other companies when they censor whatever it is you currently dislike politically. Do you naively believe they'll not someday censor you, too?

[mads]

I dont believe anyone here is cheering much for any companies based in the advertising capital of the world.

[yyhhsj0521]

Not a big deal in terms of having been normalized. Ofc it's bad.

[RaceWon]

> That's exactly the reason why their government gets away with it

So it's not the death camps then? Hmmmm... I must say that I remain totally skeptical as to your assertion.

[woutr_be]

You can list any number of things, but we were talking about censorship, so I don’t see the need to throw another subject into the mix.

[tempestn]

I think your parent is arguing that they use the threat of the camps to back up their censorship.

[RaceWon]

> I think your parent is arguing that they use the threat of the camps to back up their censorship

I am indeed. But of course your use of the term "threat" might imply to some readers that it is not a reality for those poor souls... I would substitute "hellish reality".

[woutr_be]

Thanks for clarifying, but I still don't think this is relevant to the current discussion. This is probably another discussion as to why people allow censorship, one reason could be the punishment, but there are probably many other reasons.

[balola]

If what the gov is doing (ostensibly) makes them rich, e.g. they can afford cars and condo prices double every few years, them yes, the majority of people doesn't care.

[woutr_be]

Look, I've spoken to this to my friends in China about this before, and I can understand that to them it's okay, they've seen their lives improve over the past 10 years. And I understand why they feel that way, they've never known anything else.

But anyone coming from the Western world, and agreeing with what their government is doing in terms of censorship, that I can't understand.

[roenxi]

China has a long cultural history of being relatively more wealthy than everyone else. But in absolute terms though they've just had a huge amount of technological progress dropped on them. Something like 3+ generations in of progress in Europe compressed into a fraction of a generation in China. And they look like they are regaining their traditional place as a world leading power.

India will eventually show them eventually up as having an inferior political model but on balance I can see how an evidence-based person would conclude that China's government is working well, on the basis that it presided over the fastest leap forward in living standards in human history. I'd still rather live in Europe, India or America though.

[coldtea]

>India will eventually show them eventually up as having an inferior political model but on balance

I doubt it. If anything India's system is less effective, equally or more corrupt, and downright barbarous in some social aspects (e.g. castes). Plus the rampant inequality which is much worse than China.

[101404]

Democracy and rule of law usually start to have an advantage over authoritarianism when you surpass an annual GDP per capita of about 5000 USD.

So, on the long term, I am optimistic that India will catch up. Especially now that the USA is moving away from China as "work bench".

I hope we here in Europe will follow that policy, too. It just makes much more sense to support an emerging democracy than to support a facist regime.

[goatinaboat]

I can see how an evidence-based person would conclude that China's government is working well

Indeed, in the 50’s and 60’s it seemed plausible that the economies of North Korea, Cuba, Russia, the DDR were all going to surpass their Western counterparts before long. The wheels started to come off in the 70’s and by the 90’s it was all over for them.

[orestarod]

But these countries were isolated from the world in terms of technology, economy and influence. China, on the other hand, is a country the West depends on both for production and profit, and has not closed off itself to anything that can help it stay on top. From a state of pariah, it rose to superpower status, and there is no real competitor to take its wheels off - the western companies and governments are the first to rush and make business with China, instead of beating it at its game like they did with the rest of the communist countries.

[pimple20]

Snowden basically told the Western world how much access to their online data governments have, but people don't seem to care. Yet, they care that China does it for some reason

[rorykoehler]

You can have those things without the oppression. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

[benliong78]

You're right that correlation does not equal causation, but it doesn't have to be for those folks to not care.

Having lived in Singapore, Hong Kong (current) and China, I can tell you that in Singapore's case, folks are aware that they live under a semi-dictatorship, that their government controls all media (radio, tv, everything is state-owned). But they always say "but I guess the government is doing a good job".

One has nothing to do with the other. The government can do a good job without the dictatorship, but it's the way folks rationalize their helplessness, their sense of lack of control over their fate.

This is also why we in Hong Kong ARE fighting against these kind of controls, probably in vein, but I for one do NOT want to resign in rationalizing for the government's over-control without a fight.

[rorykoehler]

I've lived in Singapore too. Its mighty oppressive in that I found myself self-censoring on occasion but you can't compare it to the dystopia China has become.

[hutzlibu]

"compare it to the dystopia China has become."

Just out of curiosity, what times are you referring to, when china became dystopian?

[devit]

Yeah, is there any information on why the Chinese government feels like they need the censorship?

As far as I can tell they are the most successful government at least in modern history in terms of increasing living standards (huge GDP growth and even things like being the only country to successfully almost eradicate SARS-CoV-2), so it seems they would keep power even in a fully functioning democracy with no censorship since they are so good.

Then maybe the censorship is actually integral to their success as it reduces the time wasted on going in directions different from the government's one and possibly boosts morale and happiness?

[Leary]

They conducted an extensive historical study of what happened to the Soviet Union and decided to avoid that.

[Eizieizz]

Bullshit! Taiwan started in the same state as the PRC communist dictatorship and they have progressed much more economically than China, their GDP is much higher.

Also culturally and from a human rights perspective Taiwan blows the chicoms out of the water.

Taiwan shows what China could have been if they would not have been taken hostage by the communist chinazis.

[Paianni]

It took them forty years to deliver the democracy the 1947 constitution provisioned.

[taneq]

I don't think anyone's saying oppression is necessary, merely that bread and circuses have always been enough to placate the masses. Nobody revolts on a full stomach.

[dwaltrip]

I would consider it a grotesque violation of my freedom if some powerful organization prevented me from privately saying what I wanted to my friends and other acquaintances.

Yes, there is some of this in the U.S. due to chilling effects from mass surveillance. I find it abhorrent. However, actively filtering and blocking messages is even worse.

[balola]

This coronavirus has made the people believe the gov is the best on the planet, since every other country is struggling with their freedom and rights, or as they are being told.

[lolc]

Yes protection of the subjected is a common justification for censorship. The reasoning is not completely wrong, just incomplete. How incomplete? One can't know under active censorship.

[defnotashton2]

Huh that's interesting because the lack of regulation and proper enforcement of said regulation of wet meat markets is what caused this in the first place.

[brabel]

Not if you believe the US government, which says that it actually came from a lab in China.

[propogandist]

One of the few bio safety level 4 labs in the world, but it's not simple as pointing a finger at a lab alone.

The University of Wuhan and University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, have worked collaboratively on research on a SARS like novel coronavirus found in Chinese Horseshoe bats back in 2015 [1].

The research, as noted on the bottom of the report, was funded by grants from National Institute of Health (under Anthony Fauci's leadership), US AID Emerging Pandemic Threats program and other funding sources, including many US based researchers.

[1]- https://nature.com/articles/nm.3985

[arminiusreturns]

It's worth noting to others that USAID is often used as a front by three-letters.

[Larrikin]

This is the issue with an authoritarian government that kills dissenters.

It's very likely that it originated naturally from a bat or other animal and made it's way into the wet market. But the government denying denying early on, the doctor blowing the whistle early on that is now dead, and the shut down of research coming out of China into the origins means that information about the virus can never be taken one hundred percent seriously.

Trump and his administration lie constantly about his response, but there are journalists and people he has fired (as opposed to have killed, disappeared, thrown out.a window, etc) that can put together evidence about what is going on with the virus and other issues in the US.

I absolutely have no faith in the Chinese government ever letting any information out that one of their labs was the cause of the globe pandemic if they were.

[jeltz]

Which if true would also likely be due to lack of proper regulation and enforcement.

[NikolaeVarius]

Trump and his circle are not the US Govt.

[hutzlibu]

Then why do you have him sitting in that government office?

[givinguflac]

The intelligence agencies have been clear there is no evidence of that. Do not confuse the US government’s position with the rantings of an old orange racist.

[madengr]

There is evidence pointing to cleavage:

https://youtu.be/R6y8dlhoMpo

[dwaltrip]

Hmmm. I think most people believe coronavirus is very dangerous to their families and communities.

[not_exactly__]

Yeah I agree that most in China don’t think much of it (or often don’t even realize censorship is happening on their exchanges). But it’s still tragic. And I’m happy to see Silicon Valley come to its sense regarding WeChat. A few years back, VC’s were tripping over each other to sing the praises of WeChat and how much better it made China with its mobile payment and mini apps.

[liberal_098]

> Yeah I agree that most in China don’t think much of it (or often don’t even realize censorship is happening on their exchanges). But it’s still tragic.

Hm... Why is it tragic? Simply rephrase it: most Americans do not even realize there is censorship". Is it tragic? If yes then for whom? Probably not for them but rather for external observers.

[goatlover]

It's tragic for people being censored, and worse, like public humiliation and jail, depending on what's been shared.

That's an objective assessment. It is tragic for those people, whether anyone else cares.

[dEnigma]

I don't have to use WeChat to know that it would be a huge deal for me if messages were censored. Not only does this conflict with my sense of privacy and freedom, but it would also be annoying apart from the censorship aspect, simply because some of my messages won't get through. That's the main purpose of a messaging app. If my friends don't receive my messages just because I happen to mention something that seems connected to HK protests or the Tiananmen Square Massacre due to some word or number matching, that would mean the failure of WeChat as a messaging app.

[rorykoehler]

I never have this issue with other messaging apps and if I did I would use a different app. Ignoring the censorship part and taking this poor quality at face value its like saying its no big deal your car brakes don't always work.

[defnotashton2]

Lol my government speaks on my behalf, and is directly controlling my thoughts and perspectives via my information feed but it's nbd.

[infecto]

Looking at comment history you seem to really be on the defend China bandwagon. Why is that? Also have you surveyed the chinese population to see if its not a big deal that wechat messages get censored?

[djyde]

I am a Chinese, and I care.

[subsubsub]

Promoting the idea that no one is complaining because of apathy is an interesting strategy.

"We didn't censor, people jusy don't care".

[goatinaboat]

For me it is not a big deal - for most Chinese it is not a big deal. Somehow most people who never touched Wechat it seems to be a big deal

Sure, because on most Western messaging platforms these days losing a message is pretty rare. It’s not a problem on WhatsApp for example. It’s rarely a problem even with SMS. So either the technology is really shoddy or messages are being blocked, which explanation would you prefer?

[baybal2]

I hope you are being sarcastic