[fatbird]

I think you're missing a third group of PHP haters that's actually a majority: those who've used PHP, sometimes extensively, and built up a backlog of "this is stupid" bits in their head about it. They don't have deeply reflective reasons or a strong theoretical basis for hating it, they've just suffered with it for a good while, found some better alternative, and are now sceptical that any amount of improvement will be able to outweigh the friction they "know" will be there if they try to come back.

So the anti-PHP feeling for this group is broad but shallow. Here's what I think is interesting: JavaScript is here right now. Like PHP, it's incredibly popular, almost mandatory to know in some degreee, and using it for any length of time causes one to build up a catalog of "WTF?" and workarounds and "use this library instead" and a constant churn of "it's great if you use <some framework or conceptual approach> on top of it".

I used PHP a lot, and found it quite pleasant with Laravel, but the latent pool of distaste means I'll never go back. I work heavily with JS now, and can feel that wide puddle of "why do I have to put up with this?" spreading, even while other parts are really good.

I don't know how you overcome this, broadly. Perhaps it doesn't matter, because I think this group (and I'm part of it) blows with the wind more than most, and if the winds shift back, we'll probably come along.

[egeozcan]

Yeah I mean the exact super dictionary bug that GP mentions also haunts Javascript, everything will be converted to string. But if you use Map and Set...

As you said, there's almost always a solution to avoid the pitfalls but that makes you more and more "unhappy" with the language over time. I'm one of the rare people who can answer most JS trick-questions correctly, and that puddle has been building for many years (let's say more than 10).

On the other side, I'm very pragmatic and using tools like ESLint and Typescript (well that's just JS with SUPER pragmatic typing in my eyes) started to make it a joy again in the last few years. I hope the trend continues. I can't say the same for my PHP experience.

[techopoly]

That's a really good point. Nothing is perfect, and frameworks are no different, so after awhile the friction points come to the fore.

Also, I have a theory that with the more common languages, you obviously find a much broader user base of beginner-level programmers, or, worse, programmers who just don't care about quality, which translates to more dysfunctional code in the community in general. My coworker at one company did not have good things to say about PHP, but when he had to take over a PHP project of mine when I left the company, he said it was some of the most well-written PHP he's ever seen -- organized, easy to follow and modify, etc. He didn't even realize PHP could be written in an eloquent fashion. (Not to brag, I've written plenty of bad code too.) Point being that if all you see in a certain language is jumbled spaghetti code, it's easy to think of it as a bad language.

A good programmer should be able to create eloquent code in any language.

Edit: Realized after posting I may have sounded like I thought you were not a good programmer -- that's not what I was saying at all! You can write eloquent code and still be frustrated with what the framework or community forces upon you.

[fatbird]

It would be interesting to see a ranking of programming languages by the rate at which they accrue ill-will with continued use :)

It's a very good point: the more widespread a language, the larger the proportion of users will be beginners, who will almost certainly confuse their own inexperience with language-driven frustration (again, c.f. JavaScript). My pet theory on the broad appeal of PHP is that it coincided with the easy availability of shared hosting accounts where PHP was the default scripting environment available. The barrier to entry for blogs, shopping carts, forums, everything was incredibly low, leading to an explosion of software, tutorials, walkthroughs, and community that was heavily slanted towards beginners, dilettants and "low end" programmers". I made a living as one for several years, doing PHP for $5-10k jobs, and there was endless small-business work in this segment.

If modpython had worked as well as modphp, the world might look very different today.