[elil17]

> Prison abolition movement will become stronger.

I really want this to happen. In the past decade, we saw the first mass pardons of people in the U.S. imprisoned for drug charges. This would have been unimaginable during the height of the "War on Drugs." This gives me hope that the imprisonment rate will continue to decline.

[Kiro]

Unless crimes are actually going down I don't see how lower imprisonment rate is good. Just sounds like criminals getting away with it to me.

[franze]

So basically: imprison more people -> cost goes up -> crime does not go down -> imprison more people -> cost goes up -> crime does not go down -> imprison more people ->....

Does not sound too clever in my book.

Maybe time to try something else?

[Kiro]

What are the alternatives? For me, punishing criminals is more important than rehabilitating them.

[elil17]

Why is punishing people more important than preventing recidivism?

[Kiro]

I want criminals to be punished for their crimes. That's justice for me. Can't explain why I feel that way but I do.

[solstice]

I (and I suspect victims of crime) sympathise with this POV. However, I'd encourage you to also think about it from a larger perspective, like a government: what would be the most advantageous path for a society to take in dealing with crime? If you take such a larger perspective you'll see that individual justice is only one of several important factors. I don't have time to explain further. But one analogy could that nobody likes to pay taxes themselves, but many accept that taxes in general (if well-spent) can be a net positive for a society/country.

[geowwy]

There are lots of alternatives. Prison was not that common until recently.

[bryal]

I think the goal should be to prevent crime.

[elil17]

Google “US prison conditions” and you will see article after article about violence, sexual abuse, and forced labour for private companies. Criminals getting away with it is better than people being kept in inhumane conditions, especially when, between non-violent offenders and pretrial detainees, most have not been convicted of a violent crime.

[Kiro]

I agree with you regarding non-violent crimes but for violence crimes I think punishment and justice trump humane conditions.

[elil17]

So if someone commits a violent crime, they lose their right to humane conditions? This isn’t an abstract question. Incarcerated people in America are actually forced to work for no pay. They are right now held in solitary confinement. They are every day subjected to beatings and rape from guards.

[Kiro]

I have no pity for people committing violent crimes, sorry.

[elil17]

I think you should give the podcast "Ear Hustle" a listen. It's produced from inside San Quentin prison. I think once you hear these people, you'll see that it's a really nuanced issue. And, even if it doesn't change your opinion, it's full of fascinating stories. https://www.earhustlesq.com/

You know, it was only two years ago when I first sat down to have a conversation with a formerly incarcerated person. This was a guy who been imprisoned for over fifty years for triple murder, two of which were in self defense and one of which he didn't commit. He was only released because it came to light that the judge who ran his trial didn't inform the jury of the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of evidence. In fact, the judge did this whenever a Black defendant was being tried, which lead to dozens of Black people being wrongly convicted. When I heard first hand what he had been subjected to while in prison, I realized just how unfair this system is. After fifty years of torture for a crime he should never have been convicted of, he was thrown out on the street with neither an apology nor any resources. No system is infallible enough to judge who has committed a crime when the consequences for making a mistake are so severe.