[esotericn]

The NHS needs funding, not our "thanks".

The Government's current drive to propagandise their ongoing failure to fund essential public service should not be tolerated.

(For those who are unaware, in the UK we are currently being asked by the powers that be to take part in a "clapping session" on the streets weekly).

[PaulRobinson]

You seem to think you can't clap if you're annoyed. That's not true.

My sister is on the frontline. She's just finished a bunch of night shifts in an ITU as a HCA so I'll text her later, and if it's anything like recent weeks she will be exhausted, scared and frustrated.

She will be exhausted because there aren't enough staff.

She will be scared because she is working with Covid-19 +ive patients and is a single parent - she notes on ITU that PPE supply is actually OK, it's when she gets shifts on general wards it becomes more of a lottery.

She is frustrated because politics, economics and healthcare have collided in horrible ways in the last 25 years or so in the UK that has left us very much on the back foot in our ability to deal with a sudden emergency.

She won't be alone in those feelings. There isn't a nurse or doctor in the country who doesn't experience those things in some measure at least some - if not most - of the time.

The first time the clapping happened, she cried. It was recognition of thanks for the tiredness, fear and frustration that she and her colleagues go through.

It's OK to be pissed off at the Tories AND clap. It's not mutually exclusive.

The problem is when we are asked to be pissed off OR clap, and we choose to clap, and then trot down to the polling station and ask for "more of the same please!"

We need to remember this at the ballot box. If you clap and you then vote for this shower of pillocks, well, you'll go to the grave aware of your hypocrisy, and let's just hope the NHS is still there to make it as painless as possible.

This Thursday go out and clap. If you have kids, get them to paint a rainbow.

And then vote when you get the chance.

[DaveWM]

I meant this article as a "thank you" to the brave doctors and nurses putting in extra time and effort to look after everyone else. Regardless of the state of NHS funding, it's just basic human decency to say thank you to them. I didn't mean it as any kind of political statement.

[kitd]

I see OP's attitude a lot on Reddit and (sadly) a few times here too. It seems common decency is a dirty word when there's political point scoring to be had. Rebranding it as "virtue signalling" is another one.

[Ididntdothis]

In the US I often see saying publicly “thanks” as a cheap (and cynical) alternative to actually funding things properly. So with me it leaves a bad taste if it’s not accompanied by a call for proper funding or other action to rectify things.

[res0nat0r]

I think this article sums it up nicely: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/i-work-gro...

[DanBC]

"I cannot abide being lauded as a hero by politicians who allow my colleagues to die for want of proper PPE."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/02/nhs-doctor-f...

[switch007]

The NHS worker opposite me would really, really like people not to clap, whistle or bang drums, because she's always asleep at that time due to her shifts...

[FartyMcFarter]

It feels like a proto-dictatorship move to ask people to worship an arm of the government, instead of seeing it for what it is: a provider of a service that needs proper funding and management.

There are definitely people in health services that deserve praise, but praising the institution in this way is a bit different...

[kitd]

The NHS needs funding, not our "thanks".

I didn't realise it was either/or.

[iso1631]

The UK continuously votes to reduce healthcare funding relative to the rest of the world, so it's either "no funding and thanks" or "no funding".

[monoclechris]

The UK has never reduced NHS funding in real terms year on year.

[iso1631]

Actually it has

https://imgur.com/WrTXfQS

From 1970 the amount of money the UK spent on healthcare per capita bobbed kept bobbing around between 90% and 100% of 1970 levels (when adjusted for healthcare inflation of all G7 countries) until 1992. There was then a slight increase until 1998, large increases until 2004, then it dropped until 2012. It jumped massively in 2013, then dropped slightly in 2014, remaining steady through 2017.

Since the 2007 financial crash, UK health funding dropped in 9 years, and increased in 3 years

(figures from OECD total health spending per country)

[monoclechris]

Please re-read my statement and compare it to your claim.

[iso1631]

You said "The UK has never reduced NHS funding in real terms year on year"

I have shown how it has, 9 times in the last 12 years.

[switch007]

Parent said relative to the rest of the world. Is that also false? You referenced inflation only

[switch007]

IMHO focussing on the NHS budget seems myopic. I haven't got the faintest clue about public health spending but there are so many things you can question like

- What is medical inflation compared to overall inflation?

- What do other countries spend?

- Are we getting value for money?

- Are key statistics getting worse despite increase budgets?

- How does population factor in to spending?

etc

[iso1631]

> - What is medical inflation compared to overall inflation?

In the G7, per year

  1970-1980 13%
  1980-1990 8%
  1990-2000 5%
  2000-2010 6%
  2010-2018 4%

> What do other countries spend?

Far more than the UK

> - Are we getting value for money?

A notoriously difficult question with healthcare

> - Are key statistics getting worse despite increase budgets?

That depends on how you define the statistics, which is massively subjective

> - How does population factor in to spending?

Older populations lead to more health spending

[monoclechris]

I am focusing the discussion on reality and facts. Everyone else can speculate as much as they want.

[twic]

Fact, singular. Taken in isolation from a context which could give it quite different meaning.

[jahaja]

Are you suggesting that one should only look at the absolute numbers? Staying at the previous year's funding is usually - in practice - a reduction for most welfare services.

[monoclechris]

I am suggesting we keep in line with reality and facts, nothing more, nothing less.

[jahaja]

Yes, and facts is that freezing funding while costs rise is effectively a reduction in funding.

[kitd]

The author has no control over NHS funding (other than encouraging people to donate toNHS charities, which he explicitly does).

Why is he not allowed under your set of values to give thanks?

[amiga_500]

It is, because it's being used as ideological cover for under-funding the NHS, when we should be calling out all the Tories, and their money laundering and tax dodging mates.

The UK media is owned by the very rich. They don't want to pay for the NHS, they want you to clap, and no more.

I have nothing against this post, generating a rainbow, no problem. My reply is about the general UK scene of clapping but not funding the NHS.

[wastedhours]

You can simultaneously thank the NHS workers and not tolerate the government's actions.

It's not just to "propagandise" - it's to show, for a brief moment, that we appreciate their effort. We can then go back 2 minutes later to hate the Tories as much as before. Having a clap in no way makes me think I've "done my bit for the NHS" any more than voting left each and every time.

[room271]

I appreciate the point, but surely both are possible!?

[iso1631]

Dare mention that and you'll be hounded out "stop talking politics"

[netsharc]

I've been wondering how much they "exploited" the recently-turned-100 Captain who was walking up and down his garden 100 times to raise money for the NHS. He or his family probably came up with the idea themselves, but I wonder if some individuals working in the government helped it "go viral". The same government that's been slowly stripping the NHS, when suddenly, a free 100 million pounds (and counting) to spend! And a nice old man that the nation can cheer on. Feel good story, distraction, etc, etc.

Another cynical look about the hero worship of the NHS is that heroes often die, if I were running a government that failed to supply PPE to doctors and nurses, I'd cheer on the idea of making them heroes because then their deaths would become something honourable and somewhat acceptable...

[erk__]

You do know that the yearly budget of the NHS is around £140 billion. So the captain would only have collected enough for a few hours. But that does not matter as the money he gathers does not go to the state, but goes to a large number of charities which are connected to the NHS. https://www.nhscharitiestogether.co.uk/meet-our-members/

Though I do agree that the NHS should be better funded.

[simonh]

>I wonder if some individuals working in the government helped it "go viral"

He did the walk in support of NHS Charities Together, an umbrella organisation of independent charities that support the NHS, and their publicity team contacted the media.

[RobertKerans]

The money goes to charities associated with the NHS, not the NHS itself. This isn't a subtle difference, it completely torpedoes everything in your comment.

[netsharc]

"completely torpedoes everything". From a man talking about subtleties.

I had to look up if the charities came because of Tory austerity, they aren't. But well, please read this article: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/22/giving...

This is like saying donating to teachers so they can buy school supplies doesn't mean it's helping fund the school...

[RobertKerans]

Sorry, that was hyperbole. But I am fully aware of what the NHS associated charities are, I don't need to look them up or read about them. Yes, in some cases they have been abused. In some cases I'm sure some percentages of the money raised here will each cause small financial abuses by an administrator of a trust which has been one of the beneficiaries. And I live in the north of England, you don't have to explain what the Tories are like, what they've done. But not everything is a conspiracy. It's a common thing to donate money to NHS charities. This went viral for really obvious reasons. There's a bad all over the government response to the crisis, but hey, let's make up a conspiracy theory and focus on that instead -- people are idiots aren't they, look at the idiots buying into this whereas you're so smart for realising that it's a conspiracy.