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by nine_k 2247 days ago
Open-minded or not, people want to communicate to other people, like their friends. So they join networks which their friends have joined. This naturally results in a single, winner-takes-all network.

That network can be federated, of course! Look how interoperable email or phone networks are. Too bad they are mostly a few behemoths that have to interoperate because they cannot eat each other, for market and legal reasons.

A federated network is going to always be less feature-rich, slower, and more hassle to deal with; Moxie Marlinspike wrote a good text about that.

So, unless users make a constant, conscious effort to stay on a federated network, outside the luring walled gardens, the walled gardens win. And most people don't even think about all the privacy implications and stuff, they just want to share cat photos with friends.

4 comments

> Look how interoperable email or phone networks are.

You are missing a major issue here: spam. E-mail and phone calls are riddled with spam precisely because these are at least somewhat open systems.

E-mail is unusable without running it through a ton of spam filters or (more commonly) letting someone else with a larger data set do that for you.

Phone calls are in some ways even worse. I no longer answer unidentified calls, period, and I keep my phone on vibrate at all times. Any important calls must be scheduled. I get 2-4 robocalls per day. I'm tempted to change my number but I've heard it doesn't matter.

Spam is a huge reason walled gardens win. Anything open gets abused to death.

Another example is closed OSes like iOS. Consumers love iOS because you almost never see malware. Open OSes easily acquire malware if the user is not tech-savvy (and even sometimes if they are), and finding software outside a walled garden is an exercise in picking your way through a minefield. Have you tried to search for a Windows app on the open web recently?

> E-mail is unusable without running it through a ton of spam filters or (more commonly) letting someone else with a larger data set do that for you.

For someone who can't imagine that email may sometimes come from people who doesn't have their best interest at heart, sure.

Me, I receive 5-15 spam emails a day, which are filtered only by my local mail client, with some false negative, and extremely rare false positives (I spotted one in several years, and I always look through my spam folder).

Despite my lack of Google grade filters, I can use email just fine.

You must be rigorous about not posting your address anywhere. I get up to a 100-200 per day.
I still use hushmail for "throwaway" type emails where I have to sign up for something I'm pretty sure will be used as an email marketing platform. Then if one alias gets compromised I just delete it. hushmail has decent anti-spam measures also. I wouldn't trust it to send that really important email for Snowden only but it works great for basically unlimited email aliases. Then I can also see more easily who's probably selling off their address list and stop using their product.
> Another example is closed OSes like iOS. Consumers love iOS because you almost never see malware. Open OSes easily acquire malware if the user is not tech-savvy (and even sometimes if they are), and finding software outside a walled garden is an exercise in picking your way through a minefield. Have you tried to search for a Windows app on the open web recently?

Windows is a minefield to download for.

Linux is a yum or apt away.

And iOS is antiowner garbage.

Linux distributions are walled gardens. They're just community maintained instead of corporate. Linux of course lets you install anything but so do MacOS and Windows, and downloading random apps off the web for either of the latter can be dangerous. It would become dangerous for Linux if Linux acquired a large non-technical user base, but as it stands malware pushers don't target it much since there are not enough victims.

MacOS is targeted a bit less than Windows because its user base is smaller, tends to be a bit more technical, and running arbitrary apps while allowed requires magic incantations like right click open (twice) the first time or opening a terminal.

Every non technical person I know loves iOS because it just works and doesn't rot from malware or badly written apps that trash the system.

On Linux, the norm is that you rarely install a sketchy opaque binary. It either comes from the packages, or from a reputable vendor's official site (like NVidia drivers), or has source code trivially available. This lowers the chance malware could sneak in.
That's because there isn't a vast network of shitware sites geared toward Linux users. If it got popular among non-technical users there would be.

Never ever underestimate what people will do for even mediocre amounts of money. Look into the enormous ecosystem (bordering on a subculture) that exists around click fraud and other forms of ad network abuse, or try to search for some Windows software and look at how many fake sites you get. It's unreal. There's money to be grabbed, so it gets grabbed.

>Never ever underestimate what people will do for even mediocre amounts of money.

or even just for thrills or for nefarious purposes!

Reminds of me of that backdoor in Notepad++[1], an app many developers I've worked with used.

[1]https://www.hackread.com/wikileaks-vault7-cia-docs-notepad-p...

Freedom isn't free, and never has been. But it's always been worth striving for.
> "Freedom isn't free, and never has been. But it's always been worth striving for."

Surely we ought to be able to recognize this claim as culturally dependent. While the Western tradition has been deeply concerned with the concept of freedom since the Greeks, that does not hold for other cultures which are currently ascendant. If anything, they might see an unfree state as the natural order of things, and "striving for freedom" as a source of social instability which is a net negative.

Of course. Choosing among competing quality metrics is always a subjective matter. There are no objective facts about what is desirable.
I completely agree with you. The thing is, that many people don't know how to care for their freedom in the Internet and don't know how it is being limited or choose to be blind to it, when being told. With their bad choice, they make it worse or ruin it for others, who do care.
Bad choice is very subjective. Running a blog on your own domain & infra costs at least $10.000 per year in time, effort etc. Not everyone is in the position to invest such an amount nor are they capable of doing so. Medium really was a great solution when everyone was able to run own domains with a Medium backend. At that time it seemed that the web was moving forward.
> Running a blog on your own domain & infra costs at least $10.000 per year in time, effort etc.

You mean $10 right? Because that’s about how much I pay for my domain a year and I don’t spend a dime more. I mean, even with Medium you have to take the time to write and format your articles…

Multiply the time you spent on setting up your favorite blog engine by your hourly rate. It's not $10, though likely not $10k, even if you choose self-hosted WordPress.
I think you can get set up with a domain and static site generator and run it through something like GitHub pages in an hour or two. I personally spent a lot of time writing up a bunch of Jekyll templates and Sass because I have strong NIH and want full control over my website, but for those who don't care (presumably which includes those using Medium) you can get up and going with zero ongoing overhead with just the default themes and stuff.
Yeah but it’s still 100x less than the time it takes to write one quality blog post
This guy spends $285 per month on his website and calls himself the smart blogger. Im aware renting a domain is $10 per year. I was talking about the infra to actually produce content with 20% of the convenience of a medium blog. Take the cost of lost opportunities in account and your first year blogging costs $10k.

https://smartblogger.com/blog-budget/

Converting everything you do to monetary terms is not a mindset I recommend having. It might make sense for some decisions, but everything does not have to be about money.

If by the end of the day you feel accomplished and happy about what you have achieved then I would count that as a win.

This is hilarious. "It's a banana, how much could it cost, $10?"
And discord has replaced it all.

Nearly every online community I've seen recently has a discord server. And the range is wide and far. Minecraft, piracy, Linux, fashion, literally anything you can think of. And I think their market share is only going to go up. Their numbers pale in comparison to facebook, but their audience is young and trusting. Ask literally anyone below 20, and they will have a discord account.

>So, unless users make a constant, conscious effort to stay on a federated network, outside the luring walled gardens, the walled gardens win. And most people don't even think about all the privacy implications and stuff, they just want to share cat photos with friends.

What's the conscious effort to stay on email? It seems like most people use email because everybody else uses email, not because it's federated.